cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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SamKR
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SamKR »

robertk wrote:
SamKR wrote: Thanks for the reply but my question is: Does a single citta arise and pass away in some duration of small time (however small it is)? I am not asking what that exact duration is but I am just curios to know if there is possibility of such a duration in which a single citta arises and passes away.
All sankhata (conditioned realities) have the characteristics (sankhata-lakkhana)of origination (uppada), cessation (vaya), and the alteration of that which exists (thitassa annathatta) .
In other words they arise , persist for an infinitesimally short time and then disappear.
Is time more fundamental than that single citta which needs a time-duration to appear and disappear? I'm confused. :?
I thought perception of time arises due to abstraction imputed on the arisings - just like the perception of shape and space arises even when there is no inherently existing shape in the universe independent of experiences (arisings). These arising and cessations need not be understood as happening in time.
Last edited by SamKR on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

robertk wrote:But the one who thinks that he directly understands the individual cittas in a process is ranking himself with the likes of sariputta..
So according to you, one has to be as astute as Ven. Sariputta in order to discern any these individual cittas? Well that's not too encouraging. Strictly an article of faith then, for the rest of us. Something to believe in, accept there are billions of them happening all the time, but forget about discerning anything directly, only one on the level of Ven. Sariputta could do that.

That's quite an alien understanding, to me, of what I took this meditative tradition to be communicating, namely, direct observation of the phenomena in question.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Mr Man
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
These arisings can be seen distinctly even when they co-arise. We just need to shift the attention (say, from perception to feeling). I find it easier to disginguish consciousness, perception, and feeling, and sometimes sankhara but I find form (rupa) to be tricky. But I believe rupa, being a part of experience, can be seen directly as rupa (and not merely be inferred based on perception).
Hi SamKR, I agree. And that was my point. That there is not a linier progression that can actually be observed in (minute moments of) time and that the "delineation" is an activity of the mind.
Have you made an effort to observe such things?
Yes I have. For example I can put a sour sweet in to my mouth and can feel the initial contact and then feelings caused by the sourness. I can observe my mental reaction to the sourness and then notice the sourness subside but this kind of observation is something that "I" have contrived so I would say, at best it is an approximation.
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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote: Have you made an effort to observe such things?

I gave some references here:
No, I hadn't even heard the term "votthapana citta" before this thread. So do you have access to these books, and they will explain the votthapana citta to my satisfaction, and it is something that can in fact, be observed?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
SamKR
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SamKR »

Spiny Norman wrote:
SDC wrote:Time is a construct built on an interpretation of experience.
I'm not sure, given that time still appears to pass while we are sleeping. But if this is true, then presumably the idea of discrete moments in time is also a construct?
I would say time does not pass when we are not experiencing since time (like anything else) does not exist inherently and, I believe, is not more fundamental than pure elementary experiences themselves. Time is a compound mental construct - an abstraction (a conceiving or sankhara) imputed due to avijja upon pure experiences. Time arises when avijja-based-experiences arise, and ceases when these experiences cease. This is my current understanding but I could be wrong though.
:anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I often wonder whether even if one could observe such incredible things... so what?

Would actually seeing this in any way reduce greed, aversion or delusion? And if so, how?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SamKR
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SamKR »

retrofuturist wrote: Would actually seeing this in any way reduce greed, aversion or delusion? And if so, how?
Seeing experiences arising and passing at such level of highest "resolution" would make one aware of utter impermanence, suffering and insubstantiality (anatta) of all phenomena. But I doubt if it is possible for any common person and if it is even worthy to invest time on it rather than trying to understand "arising and passing away" in all kinds of normal experiences.
daverupa
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

SamKR wrote:... such level of highest "resolution" (vs.) trying to understand "arising and passing away" in all kinds of normal experiences.
This last seems to be advised and encouraged, in the suttas. The former is not.

:shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Babadhari »

[/quote]
Seeing experiences arising and passing at such level of highest "resolution" would make one aware of utter impermanence, suffering and insubstantiality (anatta) of all phenomena. .[/quote]

indeed

often on retreats people can experience very strong sensations as the inner workings of the mind are noted.

its good that there are ways of explaining the very fast arising and passing sensations to students who might otherwise think they were going insane, no need for people to doubt other peoples meditative experiences by clinging to literal interpretations.

just my opinion
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

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kirk5a
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

I often wonder whether even if one could observe such incredible things... so what?

Would actually seeing this in any way reduce greed, aversion or delusion? And if so, how?
According to N.K.G. Mendis in The Abhidhamma in Practice:
The process occurs so rapidly that mindfulness has to be alert and brisk to recognize at least the determining thought moment — the vottapana — so that one can govern the javana thought moments by wholesome volition.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
SamKR
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SamKR »

retrofuturist wrote: Would actually seeing this in any way reduce greed, aversion or delusion? And if so, how?
daverupa wrote:
SamKR wrote:... such level of highest "resolution" (vs.) trying to understand "arising and passing away" in all kinds of normal experiences.
This last seems to be advised and encouraged, in the suttas. The former is not.

:shrug:
SamKR wrote: Seeing experiences arising and passing at such level of highest "resolution" would make one aware of utter impermanence, suffering and insubstantiality (anatta) of all phenomena. But I doubt if it is possible for any common person and if it is even worthy to invest time on it rather than trying to understand "arising and passing away" in all kinds of normal experiences.
But if one encounters (while meditating or not) rapidly arising experiences (like body sensations) then that is one's normal experience of that moment. If we don't take "billions" literally and consider it as a hyperbole, as Mike suggested, it is possible to observe such rapid arisings on the order of 10's or perhaps even 100's per second even for a common mediator. Such experiences, as observed in Goenka and Mahasi methods, are not unhelpful to reduce greed, aversion, and delusion.
Last edited by SamKR on Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Viscid
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Viscid »

Even if the 'billions of mind-moments' idea doesn't have much ontological weight, it may have pragmatic value in the practice of vipassana. When one is analyzing the content of the mind, or analyzing particular sensations, it may be useful to believe there is the potential to discern the content of one's experience with greater acuity than one is currently capable. If one is never satisfied with their acuity of perception, they will endeavor to improve it. Developing such a fineness of perception may deepen insight, or make states of absorption more readily accessible.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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retrofuturist
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:According to N.K.G. Mendis in The Abhidhamma in Practice:
The process occurs so rapidly that mindfulness has to be alert and brisk to recognize at least the determining thought moment — the vottapana — so that one can govern the javana thought moments by wholesome volition.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
Interesting... I wonder if that author would consider your common garden variety satipatthana (dhammanupassana specifically) adequate to the task at hand? I know the Buddha did.

Interesting also that such a reason would be unacceptable to the Sujinites given the audacity involved with volitionally taking ownership of the qualitative nature of cittas... which leads me to wonder what benefit they would see in seeing such infinitesimally small cittas in action?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
daverupa
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by daverupa »

retrofuturist wrote:... garden variety satipatthana

+

...such a reason would be unacceptable to the Sujinites given the audacity involved with volitionally taking ownership of the qualitative nature of cittas... which leads me to wonder what benefit they would see in seeing such infinitesimally small cittas in action?
I was wondering precisely these two things, the second piece especially given the related cross-post.

:popcorn:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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SDC
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by SDC »

Spiny Norman wrote:
SDC wrote:Time is a construct built on an interpretation of experience.
I'm not sure, given that time still appears to pass while we are sleeping. But if this is true, then presumably the idea of discrete moments in time is also a construct?
In theory, yes. I would like to emphasize, however, that while I am saying it is a "construct built on an interpretation", I in no way mean to deny that this construct is experienced. It is. And quite fundamentally. In fact time is inseparable from existence - perhaps the most fundamentally interpreted construct. It is because of this idea of the existence of a self in a world by which time has purpose: to keep existence organized - specifically to keep the self orientated, to always KNOW where "I" is and what "I" is doing with regards to the world (among others types of analysis and orientation).



My point in regards to this topic is, that while this construction is experienced and can and should be analyzed, it is - as far as I have come to understand - done in an effort to reduce that construction's validity. Any practice or theory that is either deliberately or inadvertently lending support to this construction should be approached with caution. To say "cittas are in time" (in turn dhamma is IN time) is very bold and perhaps even a bit irresponsible. It gives great power and value to TIME , while - in my opinion - undermines understanding of the fundamental nature of the DHAMMA.

I doubt the commentators see time this way, but it seems they are assuming that time is on the level of dhamma. How can that be possible? Is nibbana in time too? (This last one is rhetorical, and not intended to take the discussion off topic)

This is of course, just my opinion and I apologize for harping on this aspect of the topic.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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