What is the meanig of Paramattha?

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What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:03 am

Samkar wrote in another post:

SarathW wrote:
a) As per Abhidhamma, Cittas are considered as Paramattha. I accept, as it is for the time being

This is one of the things I need to make sense of. If billions of cittas arise and pass away in an instant what is paramattha (ultimate) there? If we look at the stream of cittas (which we label as citta) then such a stream is an abstraction or just a concept, then how can it be seen as paramattha? If we look at an individual citta that arises and passes away instantly, then where is parmattha even there?
Or, perhaps I am not understanding the meaning of paramattha.
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramttha?

Postby SarathW » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:12 am

According to Abhidhamma there are for Paramatthas. (ultimate realities)
Summary of which is:

Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)

1)Consciousness (Citta)
2)The mental factors (Cetasika) i.e Feeling (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)

4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)

**No 123 are conditioned realities No4 Nibbana is uncondioned reality.

I am not sure why they are called Paramattha.
I have my own openion about this but I like to know what others think about it first.
:juggling:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby cooran » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:22 am

Hello all,

Parramattha
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paramattha.htm

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:15 pm

its paramatha because it is real, it is irreducible, it exists: albeit only soooo briefly.

it is different from concepts like people etc which seem to
ive for years but which have no reality at all: they are merely the shadow, the nimitta, of combinations of many many different paramathha dhammas.

this is why the Buddha was the great analyst, the mahavibhajhavadin.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:21 pm

Hi Robert
Does real means that, Paramatthas are not dependently originated?
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:52 am

there are 2 types of paramattha dhammas, sankhata and asankhanta. All sankhata dhammas are 'dependently originated". Asankhata is not.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:21 am

Actually the question I want to ask was, why do we call something exist if it is dependently originated.
If it is dependently originated there is no absolute thing exist.
Am I correct to say that Rupa and Citta also co exist since it says that Rupa’s consist of seventeen thought moments. (Kalapas)
:shrug:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:12 am

The reason that it is real is precisely BECAUSE it is conditioned to arise. If it were an imaginary thing like horns on a rabbot, or simply a designation like human or self then it is not dependently conditioned.
The only exception is nibbana which is unconditioned.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:58 am

Thanks Robert,
So what you are saying is house is an imaginary thing but bricks, timber and tiles are real?
:juggling:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:24 pm

Sarath,
do you know the simile of the lute:

Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salāyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on

Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute)


‘…Suppose, monks,

the sound of a lute has never been heard by a rājah or royal minister.

Then he hears the sound of a lute and says:

'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful,

so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?'

Then they say to him :

'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute,

that sound so entrancing, so delightful,

so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind.'

Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.'

So they fetch him that lute and say to him :

'This, lord, is that lute,

the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.'

Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.'

They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord,

consists of divers parts, a great number of parts.

It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts,

to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment,

the handle, the frame, the strings,

owing to the bridge and proper effort of a player.

Thus, lord, this lute, so called,

consists of divers parts, of great number of parts.

It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts.'

Then that rājah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces.

Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again.

Having done so, he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes

and winnows the heap of ashes in a strong wind

or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a river.

Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute,

a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be.

Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.'



Even so, monks,

a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for body,

investigating feeling, perception, the activities (sankhārakkhandha),

investigating consciousness, so far as there is scope for consciousness,

- -in all of these investigations,

whatever there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine',

there is none of that for him'.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:07 am

Hi Robert
Thanks, interesting story.
But how can I relate Paramattha to this story?
What is real, the lute or the sound?
:thinking:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:41 am

Perhaps this simile of the Chariot is clearer:

SN 6.10 Vajira http://suttacentral.net/sn5.10/en/

:anjali:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:59 am

Thanks Mike

In regard to house:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the house (convention).
So no bricks, timber or tiles exist/real

In regard to brick:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the brick (convention)
So no sands, cement etc exist/real
Am I correct?
:thinking:
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:05 am

Thanks Mike
dear Sarath
In the lute simile it is the sound that is real, not the lute, but remember both the chariot and lute similes are only analogies. The key is to understand the difference between concept and reality in real life...
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:49 am

Hi Robert
Thanks.
Why do we call the sound of lute real which is something impermanent?
In terms of Abhidhama can I say the sound of the lute as Paramattha?
:)
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:57 am

Sound is real(but empheral). Sound seems to last for a split second or longer, but actually there are many different sounds - maybe very close in character- that are arising and passing away even during a split second.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:58 am

My primitive understanding of Paramatta is it is still a suburb of Sydney, very close to Dundas where I was raised!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:28 am

Good one Lyndon. I never noticed it. “H” is not silent in my language. :)

By the way Robert, the sound is the result of lute which is not real. So how an unreal object produce real sounds?

What do you mean by real?
I think this (Paramattha/real etc) is just a relative statement.
The ultimate objective of Abhidhamma is to understand Anatta.
So if we understand by any means, I think that is the ultimate and the bottom line.
Thank you all for your contributions.
:)
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby MidGe » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:43 am

In regard to house:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the house (convention).
So no bricks, timber or tiles exist/real

In regard to brick:
What is real/exist is the aggregate hence the brick (convention)
So no sands, cement etc exist/real
Am I correct?


Not quite... you are introducing a side effect by taking sands and cements as making up the brick. There are only the four great elements or essentials that are making up the cement (ultimately the sand and therefore the brick as well). These are real or are what you ought to think as paramatthas.

The four essentials are sometimes known as cohesion, solidity, heat and motion.
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Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:08 am

Hi MidGee
Please read Page 184 of the following link to see the way I undeestand Paramattha:

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Nyana ... tudies.pdf
:)
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