Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

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tiltbillings
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:16 am

appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...



... would you?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby cooran » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:21 am

christopher said: ....isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?


Could you say some more about this please Christopher?

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby kannada » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:02 am

gabrielbranbury wrote:
kannada wrote:
I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance...

All the best

k

Hi K,

You are saying this regarding what?

I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance if what??

I don't follow.

Kindly

Gabe

Hi Gabe, sorry my post was so brief.

Since writing that I've given it some more thought. Personally I don't really care what people have to put up with in the name of religion - the "go to hell when you die" brigade. If they're stupid enough to believe that then that's their problem, not mine. I was brought up with that sort of bull-shit and when old enough I just walked away. What really makes me see red is physical harm or cruelty, then I really do want to leap into action and start changing the world, or at least my little corner of it. If I ever got hold of some of these %$&*@# that kill in the name of religion I'd do them a social service and do my best to introduce them to some of the suffering that they inflict on others. I'd do it as dispassionately as possible, of course.

Today, on the radio, I heard of a new subset of so-called 'human being' that take videos of animal cruelty, for the purpose of the viewers enjoyment. The story was about the U.S. Gov't voting to see if anyone caught should get a mandatory jail sentence. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, how could anyone gain pleasure and satisfaction out of watching animals suffer??? I wish I could meet them so I could help change their attitudes (from vertical to horizontal). Where do these @%$#&*% get off, hurting animals for their 'pleasure'?

Their is so much beauty out their, people saving whales, commiting random acts of kindness and finally addressing global problems (caused by us, of course). However, their is a dark side to humanity and it should never, never be tolerated. We, as humans need to address this problem effectively somehow. These lowlifes who take pleasure in harming other human beings or animals are contemptible. Their needs are best served with means I'd rather not go into at the moment, but I'm sure you get my drift...

All the best

k
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:18 am

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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:38 am

Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane? So it's perhaps a little presumptuous for the inmates of an asylum to point fingers at those "more insane" than themselves. Not to mention counterproductive.

And that to me is the crux. By splitting off some of humanity as subhuman for whatever reason we are diminishing any chance they have at rehabilitation. And any chance our "shadowy" bits have a chance of ever seeing the light of day. Yes, we've got to call a spade a spade. Cruelty to animals is totally reprehensible. The people who are involved in this must be very very deluded.

I understand that this kind of thing (and child abuse and homophobia and etc etc) tends to make blood boil. And it is all too easy to rage indignantly against "these monsters". But who is without a sin, let him cast, eh? And as someone else said "Nothing that is human is alien to me." If I look carefully. We are all brothers and sisters. Most of us have lost our way. Few know that they have. If we are lucky enough to have the map to find it, this is an amazing privilege.

At the prison where I go as a chaplain, some people who come are probably child molesters. I don't ask. I am there to share the dharma/dhamma and if a guy genuinely appreciates what is being shared, I am very happy. Both for him and for everybody he will ever come in contact with. We all remember Angulimala. His "turning around" was also a great boon to all his potential victims too..

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:47 am

Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane?


You can quote the text?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:59 am

Dan74 wrote:. By splitting off some of humanity as subhuman for whatever reason we are diminishing any chance they have at rehabilitation.

Of course. As, for example, Ajahn Brahm would say "There are no bad people, just bad actions." I applaud your "turning around" attitude.

However, it seems to me that there is some confusion here between compassion and approval. As the Buddha taught us, when useful and appropriate, wrong actions can and should be criticised.
e.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:13 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane?


You can quote the text?


Well, my complete collection of short, middle and long discourses is unavailable at the moment...

Ok, ok, my copy of What the Buddha Taught is circulating somewhere in the Correctional system and I can't fulfill your request, Tilt. Sorry. But the sense of this is that until I am enlightened, I am deluded and my perception of reality is pretty skewed. Of course you know that but you were after the quote. Let me google...

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby appicchato » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...



... would you?


I like to think so...

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:34 am

appicchato wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
appicchato wrote:Wise enough to know not to get into mindless debates...



... would you?


I like to think so...



So, no tolerance for "mindless debates"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby christopher::: » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:02 pm

Chris wrote:
christopher said: ....isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?


Could you say some more about this please Christopher?

metta
Chris


I put it forth as a question, Chris, since most folks here have a deeper knowledge of the Buddha's teachings then I. However in terms of life experience it's been my observation that the rubbing of minds that happens in the world tends to have a pinball machine kind of effect, or maybe something like balls on a pool table. I did not mean that we don't have our own karma, but that unelightened beings do seem to trigger one another's reactions. Thus the need sometimes to withdraw from social interactions, from online forum debates, from discussions with irritable family members, etc. Once fully realized, enlightened, one could probably enter into any social situation and not be effected. Most of us just arent there yet though...

I would think this explains in part why people who wish to go really deep with the dharma have been advised down through the ages to leave their homes. Is there some kind of cause/effect dynamic in effect with socially constructed dukkha, sort of like how its hard to wade into water without getting wet?

I put forward more questions then answers.

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby kannada » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:26 pm

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your post and for your work in prisons, I wish you every success.

Perhaps we are all insane, yet for reasons that I feel are beyond this topic. My particular brand of insanity doesn't encompass the crimes I outlined above, we need to differentiate. I don't split off humanity, your legal/prison system does, I feel that your comment would be more suitably aimed at them. I applaud any legal system that puts 'those' sort of people away, separated from the society they prey on. It is one thing to speak out for the rights of these abusers but we also need to speak for, and most importantly protect the victims – human and animal.

You ask, “Who is without sin”. Well, as far as my previous post goes, I am. Just as I would assume that most of humanity is. Of course I'm no saint but I (we) don't delve into these forms of sub-human practices. I have no tolerance whatsoever for the cruel.

Hi Mike,
Mike wrote:Of course. As, for example, Ajahn Brahm would say "There are no bad people, just bad actions."

Perhaps someone should remind the good Ajahn that prisons are not populated by 'bad actions'.

Best wishes to you both...

k
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:42 pm

kannada wrote:Hi Dan,

Thanks for your post and for your work in prisons, I wish you every success.



Thank you. :bow:

kannada wrote:Perhaps we are all insane, yet for reasons that I feel are beyond this topic. My particular brand of insanity doesn't encompass the crimes I outlined above, we need to differentiate. I don't split off humanity, your legal/prison system does, I feel that your comment would be more suitably aimed at them. I applaud any legal system that puts 'those' sort of people away, separated from the society they prey on. It is one thing to speak out for the rights of these abusers but we also need to speak for, and most importantly protect the victims – human and animal.

Of course. No one would argue with that. But eventually they are let out and what protection does society have then, except for the seed of compassion of wisdom that is in their hearts? Watering this seed and nurturing it appropriately is far more important IMO for them and for the society at large than simply locking them up.

kannada wrote:You ask, “Who is without sin”. Well, as far as my previous post goes, I am. Just as I would assume that most of humanity is. Of course I'm no saint but I (we) don't delve into these forms of sub-human practices. I have no tolerance whatsoever for the cruel.


Respectfully, here you have either missed or ignored the point I was trying to make.

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Macavity » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:19 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane?


You can quote the text?


"A worldling is truly like a madman (ummattako viya hi puthujjano)."

It's a saying of the commentators, not the Buddha. You will find it in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentary.

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby kannada » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:21 pm

Hi Dan,
Dan wrote:Of course. No one would argue with that. But eventually they are let out and what protection does society have then, except for the seed of compassion of wisdom that is in their hearts? Watering this seed and nurturing it appropriately is far more important IMO for them and for the society at large than simply locking them up.

I don't really know the answer to that Dan. One would hope an abuser had learned his/her lesson, after all, that's what prisons are supposed to be for. My only hope would be that they're not let out until their lesson is learned. Here in Australia we have a rule for persistent child abusers, if re-offending seems probable they just don't get out – regardless of the sentence given.

Respectfully, here you have either missed or ignored the point I was trying to make.

Sorry Dan, I missed it, would you like to reiterate it please?
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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby genkaku » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:22 pm

No disrespect intended, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, do we need someone else to tell us it is a duck?

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:24 pm

Macavity wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Didn't the Buddha say that a sentient being is basically insane?


You can quote the text?


"A worldling is truly like a madman (ummattako viya hi puthujjano)."

It's a saying of the commentators, not the Buddha. You will find it in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentary.


Actually, I know that, but I thought was going to be a smart guy be able to quote chapter and verse where it came from, but - alas - I did not have the stuff at hand. Thanks. (Could you quote the page, please?)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:25 pm

genkaku wrote:No disrespect intended, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, do we need someone else to tell us it is a duck?


Which duck are you talking about?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Macavity » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:28 pm

genkaku wrote:No disrespect intended, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, do we need someone else to tell us it is a duck?


Hi Genkaku,

I don't understand you. To which post is this a reply?

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Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Postby Dan74 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:42 pm

kannada wrote:Hi Dan,
Dan wrote:Of course. No one would argue with that. But eventually they are let out and what protection does society have then, except for the seed of compassion of wisdom that is in their hearts? Watering this seed and nurturing it appropriately is far more important IMO for them and for the society at large than simply locking them up.

I don't really know the answer to that Dan. One would hope an abuser had learned his/her lesson, after all, that's what prisons are supposed to be for. My only hope would be that they're not let out until their lesson is learned. Here in Australia we have a rule for persistent child abusers, if re-offending seems probable they just don't get out – regardless of the sentence given.


Well if anything, prisons tend to entrench criminal patterns. After all when you are surrounded by offenders, many of them old hardened criminals, a first-time offender has a steep learning curve as far as all sorts of unsavoury stuff goes. From my experience, many first-time prisoners find the environment pretty unbearable. Until they get used to it - adapt, become more like the others.

As for child abusers, they are (on average) no more likely to reoffend than any other criminal, and the laws that you mention (and yes, I live in Australia too - doesn't everyone on this forum?) are there for political purposes. It is very hard to judge whether someone will reoffend or not.

So learning the lesson is somewhat hard in the prison culture where most people are there precisely because they haven't learnt it.

kannada wrote:
Respectfully, here you have either missed or ignored the point I was trying to make.

Sorry Dan, I missed it, would you like to reiterate it please?


What I was getting at was that we are not so different, "us" and "them." Angulimala was a mass murderer and an arahat, which one was he - "us" or "them"? A person you may look up to probably has some pretty nasty fantasies from time to time and hopefully will never have an opportunity to make them reality. The so-called moral fortitude of an average sentient being is a pretty shonky affair. Best left untested... And if you dig around in your mind, especially if you are an imaginative creative type (I was an artist in my "past life" before marriage and kids) you may walk through doors that are perhaps best left closed, or at least not opened without a good guide.

If you don't know what I am talking about - that's fine and nothing to worry about. But often it is precisely what ruffles our feathers the most that we should examine closely and dispassionately. Emotion as we know tends to cloud the waters, obscure clear seeing, putting it aside or paying careful attention to it, may help learn something about ourselves.. Perhaps something we'd rather not know. But these things are always best brought into the open.

I have no idea if this is relevant to you - just speaking more from my experience. But then again - I think we are not so different. All of us..

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Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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