cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
In the scenario you have described there is constant mental activity, which is constantly being bought in to. This is no more direct experience than any other activity it has just been rarefied.
In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized. I don't what you are talking about.
Yes, but in your retreat description you were taken away from that.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
In the scenario you have described there is constant mental activity, which is constantly being bought in to. This is no more direct experience than any other activity it has just been rarefied.
In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized. I don't what you are talking about.
Yes, but in your retreat description you were taken away from that.
I was? Not at all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
In the scenario you have described there is constant mental activity, which is constantly being bought in to. This is no more direct experience than any other activity it has just been rarefied.
In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized. I don't what you are talking about.
Yes, but in your retreat description you were taken away from that.
Taken away from what? The post was about about observing what arises.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote: Taken away from what? The post was about about observing what arises.
I think he got confused by an after the fact description.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote: from what? The post was about about observing what arises.

:anjali:
Mike
Taken away from: "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized".
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

In the seen is just the seen there is no arises and no passes away.

Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain.
Ud 1.10
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by mikenz66 »

Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: from what? The post was about about observing what arises.

:anjali:
Mike
Taken away from: "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized".
I don't get your point. He heard, he cognized...

Do you think that that sutta is talking about turning into a vegetable?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: from what? The post was about about observing what arises.

:anjali:
Mike
Taken away from: "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized".
I don't get your point. He heard, he cognized...

Do you think that that sutta is talking about turning into a vegetable?

:anjali:
Mike
No. vegetables do not see.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: from what? The post was about about observing what arises.

:anjali:
Mike
Taken away from: "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized".
Sadly, you snipe, but you make no actual argument for your criticism. I am keenly interested in reading any criticism, but as of yet you offer nothing of substance. Quite frankly, I don't think you understand what was actually said, and that may be my fault for not being clearer in my description, but then descriptions such I offered are always after the fact, what was experienced was "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized."
In the seen is just the seen there is no arises and no passes away.

Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain.
Ud 1.10
I see your problem, which is that "In the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the cognized just the cognized," is not just talking about the experience of nibbana; it is talking about the path that leads to nibbana, the way one should train oneself: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya." When the training is complete, awakening.

"Then, Malunkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress. S iv 72 CDB ii 1175.

In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. It is a way of training that leads to awakening, and most importantly here, finding its completion in awakening: "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen . . . then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

The argument for my criticism was made earlier: I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.

and

Not at all. What I'm saying is that if we believe we are observing "this arising because of that" or "if we believe we are observing arising and passing away" that is just more movement of the mind and we should not buy into it. We should know it as such and continue. (This in my opinion is the spirit of the teaching to Bahiya)

But I have taken things way off the original topic here. Sorry
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:The argument for my criticism was made earlier: I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.
Well, that is interesting, and so much for the Dhamma, so much for actually practicing. No need for all that meditation practice, folks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The argument for my criticism was made earlier: I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.
Well, that is interesting, and so much for the Dhamma, so much for actually practicing. No need for all that meditation practice, folks.
That's not what I have been saying. Please don't try to misrepresent me. I am saying we need to be vigilant and that if we think we are observing causality, it is our mind that is telling us that. We should be aware of that it is an activity of mind, let go and move on. And because we have a moment of cognition in the rarefied and contrived environment of a meditation retreat we should not give that moment of cognition more value or importance than any other moment of cognition. It is still the same process.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:The argument for my criticism was made earlier: I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.
Well, that is interesting, and so much for the Dhamma, so much for actually practicing. No need for all that meditation practice, folk.
That's not what I have been saying. Please don't try to misrepresent me.
Try to misrepresent you? The implication of "try to misrepresent me" is that I am trying to deliberately misrepresent you, it would seem. I will accept your apology on that. Quite frankly, you are being less than clear here, but that is what I have to contend with and when I do you accuse me of trying to misrepresent you. You simply need to be clearer in what you are saying.
I am saying we need to be vigilant and that if we think we are observing causality, it is our mind that is telling us that.
Have I said anything about what we think we are observing when we are observing? Nope, and that is the point.
We should be aware of that it is an activity of mind, let go and move on. And because we have a moment of cognition in the rarefied and contrived environment of a meditation retreat we should not give that moment of cognition more value or importance than any other moment of cognition. It is still the same process.
Interesting use of the word "contrived," which certainly carries a less than positive connotation. As for what one should do with a particular moment of cognition, we do not have to do anything with it. If it is in fact an actual bit of insight, it will do its own work, and it is not the brain, in some contrived manner, telling what is what at the moment of cognition. Obviously the Buddha viewed thing a bit differently than you, and since my experience fits more with what the Buddha said and not with what you said, the choice is obvious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by robertk »

tilt:
Obviously the Buddha viewed thing a bit differently than you, and since my experience fits more with what the Buddha said and not with what you said, the choice is obvious.
for the record I think what Mr Man says seems quite correct. thinking about a certain situation , whether on a retreat or eating a tuna sandwich, can be with right view or wrong view, with attachment or detachment.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Post by tiltbillings »

robertk wrote:
tilt:
Obviously the Buddha viewed thing a bit differently than you, and since my experience fits more with what the Buddha said and not with what you said, the choice is obvious.
for the record I think what Mr Man says seems quite correct. thinking about a certain situation , whether on a retreat or eating a tuna sandwich, can be with right view or wrong view, with attachment or detachment.
Actually, Mr Man's criticism is far more appropriate to Sujinist approach you are advocating than to the meditative approach as taught by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply