Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sanjay PS
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Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

In 1979 in Barre, Massachusetts, during a question-and-answer session while on retreat, someone asked Ajahn Chah, "Is it necessarily a barrier to be in a sexual relationship? Can one not view sex in terms of it being the dance of the sacred marriage? Couldn't it be noble and mystical?" After Ajahn Chah had the question translated, he pondered for a moment and then started picking his nose in a very graphic and extended way. When everyone was rolling on the floor laughing and he was sure they definitely got the point, he pulled his finger out of his nose: "There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it." Perhaps this story has been altered a bit in the telling, but it's still a good story.


http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha299.htm
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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tiltbillings
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanjay PS wrote:In 1979 in Barre, Massachusetts, during a question-and-answer session while on retreat, someone asked Ajahn Chah, "Is it necessarily a barrier to be in a sexual relationship? Can one not view sex in terms of it being the dance of the sacred marriage? Couldn't it be noble and mystical?" After Ajahn Chah had the question translated, he pondered for a moment and then started picking his nose in a very graphic and extended way. When everyone was rolling on the floor laughing and he was sure they definitely got the point, he pulled his finger out of his nose: "There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it." Perhaps this story has been altered a bit in the telling, but it's still a good story.


http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha299.htm
Poor Ajahn Chah. It goes both ways as to what is and is not added to it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

"There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it. "

If we understand and accept this , we come to terms to our delusions , and gradually avoid reactionary habits to essentially what is our own clinging of imaginary likes and dislikes, we then think and make a middle path that is as per our convenience and living . Middle path is a middle path , objectivity looses its beam of focus , should the acceptance in the first place be denied .

Its like some one saying ; poor fellow , he is gone off his bonkers in thinking and understanding that life is a suffering .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
chownah
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by chownah »

Whether anything is noble or mystical seems like the domain on which a monk could be expected to give an informed answer but asking a monk about sex in general?......not surprising that sex would get aliased as nose picking......if Chah is correct then is there or should there be a vinaya rule against nose picking?

If Chah is correct then there will be a lot of surprised people when nine months after nose picking they give birth......unless of course they use a nose picking condom or other preventive measure.
chownah
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

chownah wrote:Whether anything is noble or mystical seems like the domain on which a monk could be expected to give an informed answer but asking a monk about sex in general?......not surprising that sex would get aliased as nose picking......if Chah is correct then is there or should there be a vinaya rule against nose picking?

If Chah is correct then there will be a lot of surprised people when nine months after nose picking they give birth......unless of course they use a nose picking condom or other preventive measure.
chownah
Why just a monk , any one knows that the body contains that what is disagreeable , its just the sensation that makes us blind in liking it . When the sensation is over , the matter is over , we are no longer as interested . Goes on to show that the body and its curves has little do with our liking , it is just a perception , strengthened from time immemorial .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
daverupa
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by daverupa »

"Dance of the sacred marriage" sounds like some sort of New Age shamanism; I am left wondering if 'noble and mystical' isn't just code for a given enjoyment of sensual pleasure.

Nobility means very different things, in the Dhamma, than even the most loving sexual embrace, and experiences of the numinous are just as impermanent as any other feeling, generally offering distracting vistas and little else.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
binocular
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by binocular »

I find that many views of sex are biased in a particular way - because they are made and held by men (and sometimes, unquestioningly copied by women). And this bias is there regardless whether said views are held by monks, lays, or non-Buddhists.

On principle, women, primarily being the ones to have to deal with the potential consequences of sex, can see the whole thing quite differently ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote: Couldn't it be noble and mystical?"
Sounds like romantic fantasy fiction rather than an exchange of body fluids.


.
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

daverupa wrote:"Dance of the sacred marriage" sounds like some sort of New Age shamanism; I am left wondering if 'noble and mystical' isn't just code for a given enjoyment of sensual pleasure.

Nobility means very different things, in the Dhamma, than even the most loving sexual embrace, and experiences of the numinous are just as impermanent as any other feeling, generally offering distracting vistas and little else.
Sorry Dave ! i couldn't but stop laughing heartily while reading the first sentence of your post . We go a at such great lengths of convincing ourselves in justifying our delusions .

:anjali:

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Couldn't it be noble and mystical?"
Sounds like romantic fantasy fiction rather than an exchange of body fluids.


.
Its always nice to go and feel deeper how the earth element solidifies like the setting of concrete when sensual indulgence arises in the mind . All that arises in the mind , arises along with sensations .

The english language got it dead right , when mentioning that " sense and sensibility can overcome our pride and prejudice ". Sense is the sensation , sensibility is the knowing of its impermanence and not clinging to it , thus peeling away the layers of our ignorance :smile:

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Couldn't it be noble and mystical?"
Sounds like romantic fantasy fiction rather than an exchange of body fluids.


.
Its always nice to go and feel deeper how the earth element solidifies like the setting of concrete when sensual indulgence arises in the mind . All that arises in the mind , arises along with sensations .

The english language got it dead right , when mentioning that " sense and sensibility can overcome our pride and prejudice ". Sense is the sensation , sensibility is the knowing of its impermanence and not clinging to it , thus peeling away the layers of our ignorance :smile:

sanjay

I find it easier if I remember to just let go of concepts altogether.


:anjali:
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

sanjay



I find it easier if I remember to just let go of concepts altogether.


:anjali:
Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka :smile:
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote: Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka

To me, emptiness is at the heart of the Buddha's teachings.

''Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya'' - nothing whatsoever should be clung to.


:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanjay PS wrote:"There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it."
While this may be not be without some degree of truth, that really does not answer the question, and the "answer" given to us by Ven Chah is what our good monk is bringing to it is what he added to it, which is a life long celibate monk's answer, which seems to be missing something.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
binocular
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by binocular »

The story in the OP seems a bit decontextualized.
Perhaps Ajahn mocked the idea of "the dance of the sacred marriage" and "noble and mystical".

Perhaps if we'd collect all the instances in which he spoke about sex, we might get a wide variety of responses, from serious to mocking.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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