Coyote wrote:I wonder if someone could help me understand one aspect of this debate, touched upon in this thread and elsewhere. Please excuse my ignorance if this has been addressed in this topic already.
Basically "vivicceva kāmehi" has been used to show jhana as being a state removed from the 5 senses, if I understand correctly. This hinges on kāmā meaning sense objects rather than sensual desire/sensuality ect. Does this necessarily refer to being cut off from 5 sense experience entirely, rather couldn't it refer to having guarded sense gates?
Both points of view exist, one is the absorption jhana and the other is the insight jhana, Ajahn Brams goes for the absorption while Thanissaro and Vimalaramsi go for the insight while in the Jhana, MN 111 seems to defend the insight jhana but it has being singled as a late addition by Bhiky Sujato in his "A history of mindfulness":
"...But the Anupada Sutta is clearly late. It consists chiefly of stock phrases and technical terms; if these are left out there are
only a few lines that make up the characteristic vocabulary of the Anupada Sutta. These lines include at least three words suggestive of a late idiom
(anupada, vavattheti, and pāramī). In addition, the text is poorly edited. The jhāna factors are listed, as per the usual Sutta idiom, with the conjunctive
particle ca. But the remaining factors are listed in the Abhidhamma style with no ca; they have clearly been inserted from another source."
However the same author in his "A swift pair of messengers":
"One passage speaks of a monk establishing the ‘mind one-pointed in samādhi’ while in all four postures, including walking.14 This would
seem to be difficult to square with the usual understanding of jhāna, although it would not necessarily directly contradict anything in the suttas." AN 4:12 http://suttacentral.net/en/an4.12
"The path of samatha and vipassanā yoked equally is explicitly identified in only one place. MN 149.9"
I have been in absorption jhana and is great but you don't learn much, I now practice the Insight Jhana where I learn more things while in it.
Smile all the time