Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka

To me, emptiness is at the heart of the Buddha's teachings.

''Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya'' - nothing whatsoever should be clung to.


:anjali:
Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:"There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it."
While this may be not be without some degree of truth, that really does not answer the question, and the "answer" given to us by Ven Chah is what our good monk is bringing to it is what he added to it, which is a life long celibate monk's answer, which seems to be missing something.

Hi Tilt ,

It can not be easily said that the Venerable One may have missed something in context to the question and the reply . i may be wrong , but i think it was a very straight forward answer , to what was a "honey quoted question" :smile:

All of us i think, understand and accept that intimacy is a deeply ingrained perception , and is one of the last fetters that gets eradicated . Similarly , it is easy to understand and accept that the co-habition is just a grotesque part of our nature , since the mind clings to that what is repulsive " when scattered " , a step more , and the mind is actually just clinging to the sensations caused , when the sensations pass away , the body fluids , the contents , and all loses its appeal :smile:

For a Monk or a Nun , yes , the sensual self-indulgence of this kind , goes against the very grain , since the path of Dhamma is to come out of subtle and gross craving of sensations , but even for us lay people , at least we can acknowledge it as a hindrance , without feeding the fire of aversion to this primordial contents of the mind.

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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tiltbillings
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanjay PS wrote:,

It can not be easily said that the Venerable One may have missed something in context to the question and the reply . i may be wrong , but i think it was a very straight forward answer , to what was a "honey quoted question" :smile:

All of us i think, understand and accept that intimacy is a deeply ingrained perception , and is one of the last fetters that gets eradicated . Similarly , it is easy to understand and accept that the co-habition is just a grotesque part of our nature , since the mind clings to that what is repulsive " when scattered " , a step more , and the mind is actually just clinging to the sensations caused , when the sensations pass away , the body fluids , the contents , and all loses its appeal
Unclear here what you are saying. Please clarify.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:,

It can not be easily said that the Venerable One may have missed something in context to the question and the reply . i may be wrong , but i think it was a very straight forward answer , to what was a "honey quoted question" :smile:

All of us i think, understand and accept that intimacy is a deeply ingrained perception , and is one of the last fetters that gets eradicated . Similarly , it is easy to understand and accept that the co-habition is just a grotesque part of our nature , since the mind clings to that what is repulsive " when scattered " , a step more , and the mind is actually just clinging to the sensations caused , when the sensations pass away , the body fluids , the contents , and all loses its appeal
Unclear here what you are saying. Please clarify.
Sorry Tilt . The quotes and unquotes may have taken perspectives out of context .

In a nut shell , what i mentioned was that Venerable Ajhan Chah gave a straight forward answer on a question of bed partners . Its not that he missed anything , he was addressing an audience who were wanting to be serious on the path of Dhamma , even though many may have been lay people , hence the forthrightness of the answer . People who do not want to understand and accept suffering , or are simply not interested , its a different matter , they would naturally not accept that sexual urges are but a limiting factor in understanding the truth of our suffering .

Its not that there should be an aversion towards what people do or what we may do in our private chambers , its just acknowledging , yes that its just about sensation that we keep looking to endure and catch , but it soon ends , and the object is no longer as desirable, as it first seemingly was :smile: For our two children , i have explained about good touch and bad touch , and they should always talk to us should this come up in their day to day living , once they are adults and married , there is no good touch , and no bad touch , it is just a natural part of being together , and then should we sincerely want to understand our life and its living , then any kind of a touch in a marriage has also no meaning . A couple can be far apart on the two edges of a bed , turned sideways, away from each other, with their head gently resting on their hand with their feet together , yet the night can be filled with the intimacy of content and good will , its a wonderful calm feeling of being satiated with the awareness of impermanence , with the metta that you and all the forum members give :smile: Thank you.


sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka

To me, emptiness is at the heart of the Buddha's teachings.

''Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya'' - nothing whatsoever should be clung to.


:anjali:
Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:

sanjay

I was not really seeking to engage with a lengthy commentary on my first post mentioning body fluids, which is why I said "I find it easier if I remember to just let go of concepts altogether."

In general, I don't think of my practice in terms of "all the Buddhas" because that is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept.

Anyway, I have nothing more to say in this thread, so moving on now.....

Have a lovely day. :)
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

:anjali:[/quote]

Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:

sanjay[/quote]


I was not really seeking to engage with a lengthy commentary on my first post mentioning body fluids, which is why I said "I find it easier if I remember to just let go of concepts altogether."

In general, I don't think of my practice in terms of "all the Buddhas" because that is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept.

Anyway, I have nothing more to say in this thread, so moving on now.....

Have a lovely day. :)[/quote]

What is Mahayana, what is Vajrayana , what is Theravada , what is Buddhism , i have no idea :smile: So if its just one Buddha or countless Buddhas , doesn't matter , what matters is brutal honesty giving rise to Sila , Samadhi and Panna , which answers all our doubts , of which i have many :smile: . As we keep steadfastly walking on this so very universal path of knowledge, the differences are bound to disappear . Dhamma can not be cloistered by subscribing oneself to such and such a view . Misery is universal , the way out is also naturally very universal .

Thank you for your wishes , wishing you too a very very bright and resplendent day ahead.

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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Dan74
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Dan74 »

Sanjay, I appreciate your perspective and tone, thank you. :anjali:

On the other hand, we are in this world and pretty much everything we do is of no inherent value or importance. It is empty rather than absolute and it's meaning comes from what we and others give it. So how do we pick and choose in this relative world?

Can a realized person enjoy a slice of chocolate cake when offered one? Can a realized person enjoy a moment of physical intimacy with one he/she loves when the right moment arises? To me, the Dhamma ultimately is above the purity/impurity dichotomy when phenomena are apprehended as they are and being relative beings with physical bodies it may be quite the right thing to do, even in the complete absence of craving. That said, I am not talking about my experience here. I still get craving for the physical pleasure though nowhere near as strong as before. Not sure whether it's age or Dharma practice.

I may be wrong, of course.
_/|\_
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

Dan74 wrote:Sanjay, I appreciate your perspective and tone, thank you. :anjali:

On the other hand, we are in this world and pretty much everything we do is of no inherent value or importance. It is empty rather than absolute and it's meaning comes from what we and others give it. So how do we pick and choose in this relative world?

Can a realized person enjoy a slice of chocolate cake when offered one? Can a realized person enjoy a moment of physical intimacy with one he/she loves when the right moment arises? To me, the Dhamma ultimately is above the purity/impurity dichotomy when phenomena are apprehended as they are and being relative beings with physical bodies it may be quite the right thing to do, even in the complete absence of craving. That said, I am not talking about my experience here. I still get craving for the physical pleasure though nowhere near as strong as before. Not sure whether it's age or Dharma practice.

I may be wrong, of course.

Thanks Dan , its the same with me , and a combination of both of that what you have mentioned , :smile: To become old with less heaviness of all that is heavy , seemed too far fetched for me , some time recently ago . But then as in the movie of Foresst Gump , Tom Hanks , sits on a wodden bench , and mentions , "life is like a box of chocolates , one never knows what comes next " :smile: There was salt in my eyes when i watched and realized the theme of the movie ,i must have watched it almost two decades ago .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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tiltbillings
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by tiltbillings »

Sanjay PS wrote:
In a nut shell , what i mentioned was that Venerable Ajhan Chah gave a straight forward answer on a question of bed partners . Its not that he missed anything , he was addressing an audience who were wanting to be serious on the path of Dhamma , even though many may have been lay people , hence the forthrightness of the answer . People who do not want to understand and accept suffering , or are simply not interested , its a different matter , they would naturally not accept that sexual urges are but a limiting factor in understanding the truth of our suffering .
Sadly the venerated monk gave a straightforward answer filtered through a monks lens without consideration for whom he is speaking. And contrary to your statement, one can be in a loving, sexually active relationship and be a serious Dhamma practitioner (including jhana). And such a relationship is not, to use your words, "a grotesque part of our nature."
Its not that there should be an aversion towards what people do or what we may do in our private chambers , its just acknowledging , yes that its just about sensation that we keep looking to endure and catch , but it soon ends , and the object is no longer as desirable, as it first seemingly was
Another rather sad accounting of what human relationship can be. It is not just about sensation.
For our two children , i have explained about good touch and bad touch , and they should always talk to us should this come up in their day to day living , once they are adults and married , there is no good touch , and no bad touch , it is just a natural part of being together , and then should we sincerely want to understand our life and its living , then any kind of a touch in a marriage has also no meaning . A couple can be far apart on the two edges of a bed , turned sideways, away from each other, with their head gently resting on their hand with their feet together , yet the night can be filled with the intimacy of content and good will , its a wonderful calm feeling of being satiated with the awareness of impermanence ,
Sex is not the enemy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

Everything in this world is sensations Tilt .Even sensational news or sensational events get the maximum attention :smile:

Whether we like it or not , accept this truth or not , it does not matter . That is why the Buddha said , we don't love anyone or anything , it is just the sensations that keeps fooling us to believe the contrary .

If one misses sensations , one misses everything. Ben , the ex-moderator of this forum may agree to this truth of life .

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

Sanjay PS wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka
To me, emptiness is at the heart of the Buddha's teachings.

''Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya'' - nothing whatsoever should be clung to.

:anjali:
Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:
This sutta might be of interest to you, Sandjay,
sN 20.7 Ani Sutta: The Peg

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
and the Buddha said:
"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.

However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

No doubt Aloka , that wisdom is to see things in different ways :smile:

sanjay
Last edited by Sanjay PS on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Aloka
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Aloka »

No doubt Aloka , that wisdom is to see things in different ways
I don't mean to be rude, but can you edit your posts and sort out how to use the quoting facility, please ?

Getting the quote(s) positioned in between the 2 quote brackets might be a good start. ;)


.
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Babadhari
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Babadhari »

impermanence of ..........
Sanjay PS wrote:

Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka :smile:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
Sanjay PS
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Post by Sanjay PS »

kitztack wrote:impermanence of ..........
Sanjay PS wrote:

Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka :smile:

:anjali:
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka
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