Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:16 am

:anjali:[/quote]

Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:

sanjay[/quote]


I was not really seeking to engage with a lengthy commentary on my first post mentioning body fluids, which is why I said "I find it easier if I remember to just let go of concepts altogether."

In general, I don't think of my practice in terms of "all the Buddhas" because that is a Mahayana/Vajrayana concept.

Anyway, I have nothing more to say in this thread, so moving on now.....

Have a lovely day. :)[/quote]

What is Mahayana, what is Vajrayana , what is Theravada , what is Buddhism , i have no idea :smile: So if its just one Buddha or countless Buddhas , doesn't matter , what matters is brutal honesty giving rise to Sila , Samadhi and Panna , which answers all our doubts , of which i have many :smile: . As we keep steadfastly walking on this so very universal path of knowledge, the differences are bound to disappear . Dhamma can not be cloistered by subscribing oneself to such and such a view . Misery is universal , the way out is also naturally very universal .

Thank you for your wishes , wishing you too a very very bright and resplendent day ahead.

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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Dan74 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:39 am

Sanjay, I appreciate your perspective and tone, thank you. :anjali:

On the other hand, we are in this world and pretty much everything we do is of no inherent value or importance. It is empty rather than absolute and it's meaning comes from what we and others give it. So how do we pick and choose in this relative world?

Can a realized person enjoy a slice of chocolate cake when offered one? Can a realized person enjoy a moment of physical intimacy with one he/she loves when the right moment arises? To me, the Dhamma ultimately is above the purity/impurity dichotomy when phenomena are apprehended as they are and being relative beings with physical bodies it may be quite the right thing to do, even in the complete absence of craving. That said, I am not talking about my experience here. I still get craving for the physical pleasure though nowhere near as strong as before. Not sure whether it's age or Dharma practice.

I may be wrong, of course.
_/|\_
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:41 am

Dan74 wrote:Sanjay, I appreciate your perspective and tone, thank you. :anjali:

On the other hand, we are in this world and pretty much everything we do is of no inherent value or importance. It is empty rather than absolute and it's meaning comes from what we and others give it. So how do we pick and choose in this relative world?

Can a realized person enjoy a slice of chocolate cake when offered one? Can a realized person enjoy a moment of physical intimacy with one he/she loves when the right moment arises? To me, the Dhamma ultimately is above the purity/impurity dichotomy when phenomena are apprehended as they are and being relative beings with physical bodies it may be quite the right thing to do, even in the complete absence of craving. That said, I am not talking about my experience here. I still get craving for the physical pleasure though nowhere near as strong as before. Not sure whether it's age or Dharma practice.

I may be wrong, of course.



Thanks Dan , its the same with me , and a combination of both of that what you have mentioned , :smile: To become old with less heaviness of all that is heavy , seemed too far fetched for me , some time recently ago . But then as in the movie of Foresst Gump , Tom Hanks , sits on a wodden bench , and mentions , "life is like a box of chocolates , one never knows what comes next " :smile: There was salt in my eyes when i watched and realized the theme of the movie ,i must have watched it almost two decades ago .

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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:16 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:
In a nut shell , what i mentioned was that Venerable Ajhan Chah gave a straight forward answer on a question of bed partners . Its not that he missed anything , he was addressing an audience who were wanting to be serious on the path of Dhamma , even though many may have been lay people , hence the forthrightness of the answer . People who do not want to understand and accept suffering , or are simply not interested , its a different matter , they would naturally not accept that sexual urges are but a limiting factor in understanding the truth of our suffering .
Sadly the venerated monk gave a straightforward answer filtered through a monks lens without consideration for whom he is speaking. And contrary to your statement, one can be in a loving, sexually active relationship and be a serious Dhamma practitioner (including jhana). And such a relationship is not, to use your words, "a grotesque part of our nature."

Its not that there should be an aversion towards what people do or what we may do in our private chambers , its just acknowledging , yes that its just about sensation that we keep looking to endure and catch , but it soon ends , and the object is no longer as desirable, as it first seemingly was
Another rather sad accounting of what human relationship can be. It is not just about sensation.

For our two children , i have explained about good touch and bad touch , and they should always talk to us should this come up in their day to day living , once they are adults and married , there is no good touch , and no bad touch , it is just a natural part of being together , and then should we sincerely want to understand our life and its living , then any kind of a touch in a marriage has also no meaning . A couple can be far apart on the two edges of a bed , turned sideways, away from each other, with their head gently resting on their hand with their feet together , yet the night can be filled with the intimacy of content and good will , its a wonderful calm feeling of being satiated with the awareness of impermanence ,
Sex is not the enemy.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:49 pm

Everything in this world is sensations Tilt .Even sensational news or sensational events get the maximum attention :smile:

Whether we like it or not , accept this truth or not , it does not matter . That is why the Buddha said , we don't love anyone or anything , it is just the sensations that keeps fooling us to believe the contrary .

If one misses sensations , one misses everything. Ben , the ex-moderator of this forum may agree to this truth of life .

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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Aloka » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:07 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:
Aloka wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka


To me, emptiness is at the heart of the Buddha's teachings.

''Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya'' - nothing whatsoever should be clung to.

:anjali:


Emptiness , hollowness , yes ; is that what all the Buddhas point out to , guiding us find the same within ourselves .Hence , what you said is true , but to understand , realize and dip in this truth , all the Buddhas stress the nature of change of sensations as the important point , in order to break the shackles of clinging to a self . Will post this subject as a new topic .

Sensation is not a concept, it is experienced here and now . Say for example if one has got mildly angry , or hatred arises , one can feel heat and tautness , surging through the body . The ears get heated up , the breath becomes hot , it is the truth , for buddhist , and for non-buddhist alike . What is there to say it is a concept . Its just but a change of cause and effect , like when 2 parts of hydrogen is added to 1 part of oxygen , the resultant combination gives rises to water . Similarly , when this happens in the mind , that happens as the sensation . Nothing buddhist ,or abstract about it . Universal truth , for one and all to practice and put to good use in daily life :smile:


This sutta might be of interest to you, Sandjay,

sN 20.7 Ani Sutta: The Peg

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.007.than.html


and the Buddha said:

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.

However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html


:anjali:
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:32 pm

No doubt Aloka , that wisdom is to see things in different ways :smile:

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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Aloka » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:37 pm

No doubt Aloka , that wisdom is to see things in different ways


I don't mean to be rude, but can you edit your posts and sort out how to use the quoting facility, please ?

Getting the quote(s) positioned in between the 2 quote brackets might be a good start. ;)


.
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Babadhari » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:40 pm

impermanence of ..........
Sanjay PS wrote:

Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka :smile:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:47 pm

kitztack wrote:impermanence of ..........
Sanjay PS wrote:

Sensations are the heart of the Buddhas teachings Aloka :smile:



:anjali:
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby kmath » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote:In 1979 in Barre, Massachusetts, during a question-and-answer session while on retreat, someone asked Ajahn Chah, "Is it necessarily a barrier to be in a sexual relationship? Can one not view sex in terms of it being the dance of the sacred marriage? Couldn't it be noble and mystical?" After Ajahn Chah had the question translated, he pondered for a moment and then started picking his nose in a very graphic and extended way. When everyone was rolling on the floor laughing and he was sure they definitely got the point, he pulled his finger out of his nose: "There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it." Perhaps this story has been altered a bit in the telling, but it's still a good story.


What do you really expect when you ask that kind of question to Ajahn Chah?
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:30 pm

kmath wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In 1979 in Barre, Massachusetts, during a question-and-answer session while on retreat, someone asked Ajahn Chah, "Is it necessarily a barrier to be in a sexual relationship? Can one not view sex in terms of it being the dance of the sacred marriage? Couldn't it be noble and mystical?" After Ajahn Chah had the question translated, he pondered for a moment and then started picking his nose in a very graphic and extended way. When everyone was rolling on the floor laughing and he was sure they definitely got the point, he pulled his finger out of his nose: "There's nothing more to it than that, except what the mind adds to it." Perhaps this story has been altered a bit in the telling, but it's still a good story.


What do you really expect when you ask that kind of question to Ajahn Chah?
That is an Ajahn Chah response, from all the stories I have heard and read about him, but I would somewhat circumspect in generalizing from that demonstration of blunt, rural Thai humor.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:32 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:Everything in this world is sensations Tilt .Even sensational news or sensational events get the maximum attention :smile:

Whether we like it or not , accept this truth or not , it does not matter . That is why the Buddha said , we don't love anyone or anything , it is just the sensations that keeps fooling us to believe the contrary .
Quote the text.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Thule » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:33 pm

Here's a talk where Ajahn Chah used "finger and nose" in a perhaps more suitable context:
Part VIII
Everything Is Teaching Us
Right Restraint

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ah_web.pdf
Exercise restraint and caution about the six sense faculties of the eye seeing forms, the ear hearing sounds, and so forth. This is what we are constantly teaching about in so many different ways. It always comes back to this. But to be truthful with ourselves, are we really aware of what goes on? When the eye sees something, does delight come about? Do we really investigate? If we investigate, we will know that it is just this delight that is the cause for suffering to be born. Aversion is the cause for suffering to be born. These two reactions actually have the same value. When they occur, we can see the fault of them. If there is delight, it is merely delight. If there is aversion, it is merely aversion. This is the way to quell them.

For example, we attach special importance to the head. From the time we are born, in this society, we learn that the head is something of the utmost significance. If anyone touches it or hits it, we are ready to die. If we are slapped on other parts of our body, it’s no big deal; but we give this special importance to the head, and we get really angry if anyone slaps it.

It’s the same with the senses. Sexual intercourse excites the minds of people, but it really isn’t different from sticking a finger in your nostril. Would that mean anything special to you? But worldly beings have this attachment to the other entrance; whether it is animals or humans, it has special importance to them. If it were a finger picking a nostril, they wouldn’t get excited over that. But the sight of this one inflames us. Why is this? This is where becoming is. If we don’t attach special importance to it, then it’s just the same as putting a finger in your nostril. Whatever happened inside, you wouldn’t get excited; you’d just pull out some snot and be done with it.

But how far is your thinking from such a perception? The ordinary, natural truth of the matter is just like this. Seeing in this way, we aren’t creating any becoming, and without becoming there won’t be a birth; there won’t be happiness or suffering over it, there won’t be delight coming about. There is no grasping attachment when we realize this place for what it is. But worldly beings want to put something there. That’s what they like. They want to work in the dirty place. Working in a clean place is not interesting, but they rush to work in this place. And they don’t even have to be paid to do it!

Please look at this. It’s just a conventional reality that people are stuck in. This is an important point of practice for us. If we contemplate the holes and entrances of our nose and ears and the rest, we can see that they are all the same, just orifices filled with unclean substances. Or are any of them clean? So we should contemplate this in the way of Dhamma. The truly fearful is here, nowhere else. This is where we humans lose our minds.
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:49 pm

Thule wrote:

It’s the same with the senses. Sexual intercourse excites the minds of people, but it really isn’t different from sticking a finger in your nostril. Would that mean anything special to you? But worldly beings have this attachment to the other entrance; whether it is animals or humans, it has special importance to them. If it were a finger picking a nostril, they wouldn’t get excited over that. But the sight of this one inflames us. Why is this? This is where becoming is. If we don’t attach special importance to it, then it’s just the same as putting a finger in your nostril. Whatever happened inside, you wouldn’t get excited; you’d just pull out some snot and be done with it.
Again, it something a life long celibate monk would say. I does not warrant a comment.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Viscid » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:29 pm

It's a response we should expect from a celibate monk. If you've been celibate that long, you had to cultivate a strong dispassion (and/or disgust) toward sex, and any suggestion that sex provided a valuable mystical experience would be regarded as foolish.

The value of any mystical experience, sexual or otherwise, should be judged by its subsequent impact on the individual who had it. Does it make a person more wise, more insightful, or more capable of controlling greed, hatred and delusion? If some mystical sexual experience does make one more trusting and loving towards their partner, then it most certainly has value. However, if the mystical experience does not impart change upon the individual, then it should be regarded to be as vacuous as any sensual pleasure.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Viscid wrote:It's a response we should expect from a celibate monk. If you've been celibate that long, you had to cultivate a strong dispassion (and/or disgust) toward sex, and any suggestion that sex provided a valuable mystical experience would be regarded as foolish.

The value of any mystical experience, sexual or otherwise, should be judged by its subsequent impact on the individual who had it. Does it make a person more wise, more insightful, or more capable of controlling greed, hatred and delusion? If some mystical sexual experience does make one more trusting and loving towards their partner, then it most certainly has value. However, if the mystical experience does not impart change upon the individual, then it should be regarded to be as vacuous as any sensual pleasure.
It is not about mystical experience. It is, however, about relationship between two adults, and sex is just a part of that, and it is a bit more than just nose picking. Ajahn Chah, on so many levels, really had not a clue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby Viscid » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It is not about mystical experience. It is, however, about relationship between two adults,


Oh, you're right. I read it too quick, I thought the questioner asked about something like tantra. And yes, Ajahn Chah in this instance does seem to disregard, (or more likely just be ignorant of,) the value of physical bonding.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:15 pm

tiltbillings wrote:It is, however, about relationship between two adults, and sex is just a part of that, and it is a bit more than just nose picking.


wiki wrote:It is believed by many that sexual desire plays an important role in romantic love and that it may be an extremely important factor in strengthening the interpersonal dynamic of romantic relationships; recent studies have supported these theories and has also provided further insight into the various neurobiological substrates that influence the development of various types of relationships.


There is an interesting thing about this. In a recent Science article (Science 20 September 2013: Vol. 341 no. 6152 pp. 1336-1339) there is discussion of a difference between empathy and compassion:

When Singer asked (Matthieu) Ricard to "do his thing," focusing on compassion, in the MRI scanner, she got a surprise. The brain regions she saw light up were not the ones that she had seen time and again when subjects tuned into the suffering of another person. Instead, areas associated with romantic love or reward, such as the nucleus accumbens and ventral striatum, were activated.

Confused, Singer asked Ricard what he had been doing. He explained that he had put himself into a state of compassion, a warm feeling of well-wishing toward the world. When Ricard went back into the scanner and concentrated on the plight of children in a Romanian orphanage he had seen in a documentary, his brain showed the typical signature of empathy. But Ricard later said that the pain quickly became unbearable. "I felt emotionally exhausted, very similar to being burned out."


So there are at least two systems of goodwill, one of which can be quite weighty, even painful. What I wonder is, whether the romantic relationship and its features lean more towards empathic results or towards compassionate ones, as a general theme.

Empathy tends to be the result of a breakdown of interpersonal barriers such that the other is taken, at the neurological level at least, to be almost an appendage of the self - the pain of another is simulated as though it were one's own pain, and this is what leads to the burnout described above.

I wonder if romantic relationships foster one or another of these two systems more than the other, & I wonder if the brahmaviharas et al are similar or different with respect to that. I have my suspicions; sexual desire & activity is handled very differently than pervading space with goodwill, in my experience.
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Intimacy and all that we perceive it as

Postby binocular » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:15 pm

Perhaps once all these men, monks and lays, take birth in female bodies, maybe then they'll see things differently ...
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