Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minutes

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by Anagarika »

Clever, but he really offers no real argument that what Ven Mahasi Sayadaw is doing to trying to cater to the masses for his own aggrandizement, as in implied by this paragraph.
I tried to be careful not to infer that Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, or any of the noble Sayadaws, were included in this reference. I was referencing what I believe Prof. Sharf referenced, that being the 8th century CE dilutions with current mindfulness approaches...this would not include, at least as I was communicating, the noble Burmese traditions and its Sayadaws.

It may or may not be true that the Burmese "dry" vipassana approach involved allowing meditators to bypass samatha/vipassana in tandem (Canon jhana), and to get at the vipassana side more directly. I have no opinion on this, and wouldn't venture one, as I have not had the good fortune to train in Burma or with, for example, Joseph Goldstein. I make no suggestion that the Sayadaws or JG teach vipassana as a means to cater to self aggrandizement, and while having never met JG, I have read enough about him to believe he's a rare example of a selfless and dedicated teacher in the west. A recent Tricycle article that mentioned JG helping a disabled man meditate (even inviting the man to his home) after his Zen teachers disowned him because he couldn't sit upright without pain, spoke volumes about JG's compassion and selflessness.
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by Anagarika »

If we accept that the Buddha's core Dhamma is found in the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas of the Pali Canon, then we are likely to take the view that Prof. Sharf takes of sati and its interpretations.

Not at all. You might want to look at Ven Analayo's discussion of sati and Ven Bodhi's discussion of "bare attention": http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p201569
Unless I am missing something here, Ven. Bodhi is taking a Sutta based approach to sati, as has Ven. Thanissaro. Ven. Analayo's quote using the term "bare" uses this term differently than the "bare awareness" crowd.

I read the passages that Tilt linked and it seems to me that Ven. Bodhi makes the case for the Sutta based definition of sati, but does it in a perhaps more welcoming and inclusive way, but I see no suggestion that he and Ven. T differ greatly. If I have given Prof. Sharf more credit than he is due, then I need to read more of his work and perhaps have a more educated opinion...not that he cares a whit what my opinion might be.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by tiltbillings »

BuddhaSoup wrote:
If we accept that the Buddha's core Dhamma is found in the Sutta and Vinaya pitakas of the Pali Canon, then we are likely to take the view that Prof. Sharf takes of sati and its interpretations.

Not at all. You might want to look at Ven Analayo's discussion of sati and Ven Bodhi's discussion of "bare attention": http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p201569
Unless I am missing something here, Ven. Bodhi is taking a Sutta based approach to sati, as has Ven. Thanissaro. Ven. Analayo's quote using the term "bare" uses this term differently than the "bare awareness" crowd.
Who is this '"bare awareness" crowd?'
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by Anagarika »

tiltbillings wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote:
Unless I am missing something here, Ven. Bodhi is taking a Sutta based approach to sati, as has Ven. Thanissaro. Ven. Analayo's quote using the term "bare" uses this term differently than the "bare awareness" crowd.
Who is this '"bare awareness" crowd?'
I should have been more careful with my phrasing. The term "bare awareness" seems to be a loaded term, having more breadth and depth as used in the vipassana community. I meant the term as it may be used in Soto Zen http://www.zcbclaresangha.org/pubs/Bare ... TheWay.htm , or by JKZ, as a "nonjudgmental, nonresponsive awareness of the present moment." Or, as used above "the secular, mindfulness as therapy crowd.." I won't use the term again, as it seems to have varying meanings across different traditions.
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by m0rl0ck »

BuddhaSoup wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Who is this '"bare awareness" crowd?'
I should have been more careful with my phrasing. The term "bare awareness" seems to be a loaded term, having more breadth and depth as used in the vipassana community. I meant the term as it may be used in Soto Zen http://www.zcbclaresangha.org/pubs/Bare ... TheWay.htm , or by JKZ, as a "nonjudgmental, nonresponsive awareness of the present moment." Or, as used above "the secular, mindfulness as therapy crowd.." I won't use the term again, as it seems to have varying meanings across different traditions.
Where is the quote from? I cant find
"nonjudgmental, nonresponsive awareness of the present moment."
anywhere in that linked page. What made me curious enough to look is the word "nonresponsive" I dont think i have ever heard that word applied to mindfulness in zen.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by mikenz66 »

BuddhaSoup wrote:
Clever, but he really offers no real argument that what Ven Mahasi Sayadaw is doing to trying to cater to the masses for his own aggrandizement, as in implied by this paragraph.
I tried to be careful not to infer that Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, or any of the noble Sayadaws, were included in this reference. I was referencing what I believe Prof. Sharf referenced, that being the 8th century CE dilutions with current mindfulness approaches...this would not include, at least as I was communicating, the noble Burmese traditions and its Sayadaws.
Of course, Prof Sharf did talk about Mahasi Sayadaw. If you read the criticisms that he is referencing: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p220875 you'll find that they revolve around technical issues to do with Commentarial interpretations of access concentration, and so on. And this is what Prof Sharf seems to me to be saying: Buddhist Modernists have abandoned the Theravada tradition.

His criticisms would therefore apply also to Ven Thanissaro and the other various Thai Forest strands, who actually make an issue out of abandoning the Commentaries... Therefore, I couldn't figure out where this idea came from:
BuddhaSoup wrote: I feel that what Prof. Sharf is stating echoes what Ven. Thanissaro teaches, which is that the practices that evolved through the commentarial tradition (and found a home in the Burmese vipassana tradition) do not fully reflect what the Canon prescribes.
I'm not sure we listened to the same talk!
BuddhaSoup wrote: It may or may not be true that the Burmese "dry" vipassana approach involved allowing meditators to bypass samatha/vipassana in tandem (Canon jhana),
The access concentration discussed in the Visuddhimagga, which is the minimum required for "dry" insight, appears to be of that level. And clearly the Burmese methods seek to develop samatha an vipassana in tandem, in much the same way as Ven Thanissaro instructs (as I've already pointed out).
BuddhaSoup wrote: and to get at the vipassana side more directly. I have no opinion on this, and wouldn't venture one, as I have not had the good fortune to train in Burma or with, for example, Joseph Goldstein. I make no suggestion that the Sayadaws or JG teach vipassana as a means to cater to self aggrandizement, and while having never met JG, I have read enough about him to believe he's a rare example of a selfless and dedicated teacher in the west. A recent Tricycle article that mentioned JG helping a disabled man meditate (even inviting the man to his home) after his Zen teachers disowned him because he couldn't sit upright without pain, spoke volumes about JG's compassion and selflessness.
Well, I have not met JG, or Ven T, or been to Burma, or had teachers that most here would have heard of. I'm sure if I had met Ven T I'd also be enthusiastic about him, as others here (including me) are enthusiastic about the teachers who have helped them. But when enthusiasm runs over into statements to the effect that "my teacher is the one who has the real Dhamma", I tend to become highly skeptical.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by Anagarika »

I'm sure if I had met Ven T I'd also be enthusiastic about him, as others here (including me) are enthusiastic about the teachers who have helped them. But when enthusiasm runs over into statements to the effect that "my teacher is the one who has the real Dhamma", I tend to become highly skeptical.
I trust that no one read anything that I wrote to suggest something like the above. I posted the original post to get comment from others over Prof. Sharf's presentation at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbu ... nders.html. I don't post here to gratify myself..I'd rather find myself incorrect and be corrected or correct myself on an issue and grow from that experience, than engage in an effort to prove myself right or superior in view to others. I regret touching any "third rails" in this discussion.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by mikenz66 »

OK, sorry to go off track, but it seemed a particularly stretched reading to suggest that Prof S was supporting the views of Ven T, so I felt I should elaborate how I saw his talk.

To be clear, I like Ven T's teachings, along with the teachings of most of the serious modern monastic and lay teachers that get mentioned here. However, suggestions that any of those particular teachers has a monopoly on understanding of Dhamma is an automatic red flag to me.

Perhaps that wasn't the intention of this thread, but there has been a lot of discussion of Ven T's take on sati on this Forum, so perhaps some of us have been over-sensitised.

I have particular respect for the way most teachers (such as Ajahn Amaro, who I happened to be listening to yesterday) state very clearly that "this is my interpretation, if I've said something wrong, I please forgive me."

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by Anagarika »

mikenz66 wrote: I have particular respect for the way most teachers (such as Ajahn Amaro, who I happened to be listening to yesterday) state very clearly that "this is my interpretation, if I've said something wrong, I please forgive me."

:anjali:
Mike
This is a terrific quote from Ajahn Amaro, who is a terrific teacher.

As for the discussion on this post, I feel as though I have learned some important things from the exchange, even though at times there was some friction, perhaps. I always come to DW with the idea from the ancient Hebrew text that "iron sharpens iron," and hopefully, I've gained from the knowledge of others even it it meant that I found myself wanting in my understanding of an issue.
:anjali:
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Mindfulness or Mindlessness: Sati Explained in 30 Minute

Post by daverupa »

I see a shifting interplay of a few Venn spheres here, which come up in different ways on the forum. Some of them include the already-complex interactions between meditation modalities within the Theravada tradition, to say nothing of the Buddhist tradition taken as a whole (which includes some wild stuff, what with the other two -yanas).

What's been added recently, which has complicated the situation manyfold, is a scientific approach as well as a New Age approach - and some shades between - to the lot as a consequence of modernity as well as various (inter-)national contexts.

So, given the general flexibility of language and the lack of a certain precision in this field, meditation as a whole becomes a jumbled mess to talk about unless great care is taken, and key terms take on towering significance in this sort of environment which is made even more complicated when these rarefied terms are used in unaligned, or even conflicting, ways by different people.

Winnowing the chaff can be difficult, but there are techniques for it.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Post Reply