Monks can create art, but not Music?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Mkoll
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by Mkoll »

binocular,

It's definitely my experience since becoming a disciple of the Buddha.

But when I was not a disciple, I would have probably been very skeptical of that teaching.

It just goes to show how "against the stream" the Dhamma goes. If we define the idea of spirituality in its most bare form as antithetical to worldliness, the Dhamma is the spirituality par excellence.
"Just then these verses, unspoken in the past, unheard before, occurred to me:

'Enough now with teaching what only with difficulty I reached. This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see.'

"As I reflected thus, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.
-MN 26
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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kmath
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by kmath »

binocular wrote:Of course. Or is such not your experience?
I wouldn't say so. I mean, you can't just lump all "art" in one category like that.
binocular
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by binocular »

kmath wrote:I wouldn't say so. I mean, you can't just lump all "art" in one category like that.
This is what I said earlier:
binocular wrote: It seems to me that that which we _usually_ call "art" does precisely that:
it makes people who are already bound by passion focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion,
it makes people who are already bound by aversion focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion,
it makes people who are already bound by delusion focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion.

"Religious art" may be done with artistic precision, but its intent certainly isn't to inspire passion, aversion and delusion, and ideally, it isn't created by people in a state of intoxication and heedlessness.
What exactly do you take issue with?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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kmath
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by kmath »

binocular wrote: What exactly do you take issue with?
This part:
binocular wrote: It seems to me that that which we _usually_ call "art" does precisely that:
it makes people who are already bound by passion focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion,
it makes people who are already bound by aversion focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion,
it makes people who are already bound by delusion focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion.
Music, for example, can be extremely uplifting and inspiring of wholesome states, like metta. :heart:
binocular
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by binocular »

What music, for example?
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kmath
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by kmath »

I could give you some examples of what I find inspiring, but that has to do with my personal tastes. Everyone is different.
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DNS
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by DNS »

binocular
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by binocular »

David N. Snyder wrote:
This is an example of "religious art", already mentioned above.

This kind of music is not the same kind of music as, say, Elvis Presley's music.
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MattB
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by MattB »

Hello All,
Music is something that I'm currently having an issue with even as a lay Buddhist as it is and always has been my true passion in life. I couldn't imagine not playing and enjoying it, though, through my study of the Dhamma, I have gotten a pretty good idea of music's effect on my progress. Although not a distraction during meditation, in the remainder of my day, it plays as a constant background in the way of mindfulness. It is the only thing that makes me question this path I'm on and it is quite discouraging to me. If my situation hadn't been improved so dramatically by Dhamma study and adhering to the precepts, I might consider going elsewhere. Hopefully, all of us established artists can find a middle way that still allows for mindfulness and peace.
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alan
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by alan »

Good music opens your mind. Good Art can expand the soul. No reason for the lay person to avoid appreciation of beauty so long as it does not become a distraction or obsession. As a friend said recently, true appreciation of beauty can be a part of the creative process. And what's wrong with that?
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MattB
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by MattB »

Good point Alan. The goal is to appreciate it but not become obsessed. The "high" that musicians and music lovers can get from music can be very intense. Very emotional. So much so that in my experience it can be likened to a sort of intoxicating experience. However, if one is able to obtain mindfulness and concentration during meditation and throughout one's day, then for the layperson, I can't imagine it being that harmful.
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PadmaPhala
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Re: Monks can create art, but not Music?

Post by PadmaPhala »

is there a precept for not creating music?

~
:sage: with a Les Paul
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