Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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seeker242
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by seeker242 »

Satti1 wrote: But can jhanas not also result in craving and therefore cause suffering?
AN 4.123 "Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption" talks about this. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.
And IMO of course an "educated disciple of the noble ones" uses mental absorption for the purpose of attaining insight for liberation. An "ordinary person" uses it to "bliss out" and that's it.

Jhanas pleasure is considered superior to sensual pleasures because it leads to a higher deva realms whereas worldly pleasure leads to a worldly (or perhaps lower?) realm.

Or, you could say that Jhana pleasure has the potential to lead to "higher state" or "closer to enlightenment" or whatever you want to call it. Whereas sensual pleasure has no potential for that at all.

But as you can see from the above, getting "closer to enlightenment" is not necessarily the case, if the person is an "uneducated run-of-the-mill person".
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manas
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Post by manas »

Mkoll wrote: I think I've experienced rapture once during meditation. It was for the duration of a single in-out breath during ānāpānasati. It was definitely a whole-body experience: my entire body felt full of joy and delight. It was gross in that it was overpoweringly obvious what was happening but it wasn't gross like sensual pleasures are; it was a much more refined pleasant feeling. And then it quickly faded with successive breaths. There is no comparison to any sensual pleasure I've ever experienced - this was on a whole other level.

Whatever it was, it definitely left an imprint on my mind given that I can still remember the event even though it lasted for all of a few seconds.
:anjali:
I think a few of us will be able to relate, in that one can have a glimpse or two, and then nothing for a while. But with training, we can learn it, is is indeed a skill that like all things, takes dedicated daily practice. Something I am working on, is to try to remain really watchful and aware of the causes for such things arising. In my experience thus far, piti-sukha will not arise if you are hankering after it (which, really, is the hindrance of restlessness, which must be abandoned), so it's best to put thoughts of it right out of your mind. Instead, put energy & focus into cultivating the causes for it's arising. So if it is described as being 'born of seclusion / withdrawal' then if we put energy into achieving that - the seclusion from the five hindrances, as I understand it - then the piti-sukha will arise as the natural result. Not that I've been able to maintain this for very long at all, though. Still early days.

kind regards,
manas.
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by manas »

On a lighter note, there are a few other advantages to the pleasure of meditation, as compared with sensual pleasure. Here's just a few:

1. Sensual pleasures can be really expensive; jhanic pleasure is free of charge, all you need is a quiet place to sit, and lots of practice.

2. Sensual pleasures, if over-indulged in, can leave you feeling drained or sick. Jhana (so I've heard) leaves you feeling light and refreshed.

3. You won't get in trouble with the law, beaten up on a night out, or catch a strange disease, doing jhana. But you can doing sensual pleasures.

4...(add your own list here)

I'm sure there are more, but you get the idea. :D
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Re: Re:

Post by Modus.Ponens »

manas wrote:
I think a few of us will be able to relate, in that one can have a glimpse or two, and then nothing for a while. But with training, we can learn it, is is indeed a skill that like all things, takes dedicated daily practice. Something I am working on, is to try to remain really watchful and aware of the causes for such things arising. In my experience thus far, piti-sukha will not arise if you are hankering after it (which, really, is the hindrance of restlessness, which must be abandoned), so it's best to put thoughts of it right out of your mind. Instead, put energy & focus into cultivating the causes for it's arising. So if it is described as being 'born of seclusion / withdrawal' then if we put energy into achieving that - the seclusion from the five hindrances, as I understand it - then the piti-sukha will arise as the natural result. Not that I've been able to maintain this for very long at all, though. Still early days.

kind regards,
manas.
Hello

I'd like to see this clarified. I think that it's not the fact that we want to attain jhana that hinders us from attaining it. I think the problem is that, if you are focusing on the breath, with the anticipation in the back of your mind of geting to 1st jhana, you are not totaly focused on the breath. It is probably a form of restlessness, but I think this distinction, if true, must be made. It's not desiring jhana that prevents you from attaining it. It's a more a result of a defective focus, due to the antecipation of jhana, due to not being focused with your whole mind on the object.

This is a subtle difference, but it explains the (apparent) contradiction that to get to jhana you have to not desire it.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

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Becauseity cause cuz.
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Mkoll »

Dear friends,
Another significant indication related to the nature of absorption can also be gathered from the Upakkilesa-sutta. According to its account, before his awakening the Buddha had to make quite an effort in order to overcome a whole series of obstructions until he was able to attain the first absorption (MN III 157). This suggests the first absorption to be a state of mind reached only after prolonged practice and requiring considerable meditative expertise.

This impression is confirmed by turning to the cases of Anuruddha and Mahāmoggallāna. In the case of each of these two chief disciples the personal intervention of the Buddha was required for them to be able to attain and stabilize the first absorption (MN III 157 and SN IV 263). If Anuruddha and Mahāmoggallāna, who later on were reckoned as outstanding among the Buddha’s disciples for their concentrative abilities (AN I 23), had such difficulties, then it can safely be concluded that the first absorption stands for a level of concentration that requires considerable meditative training.

Elsewhere the discourses in fact indicate that during the first absorption it is impossible to speak (SN IV 217), and the hearing of sounds is an obstruction to its attainment (AN V 135). With the first absorption one has gone beyond Māra’s vision (MN I 159), having reached the end of the world of the senses (AN IV 430). These passages confirm that the first absorption is indeed a state during which the mind is “absorbed” in deep concentration.
-From Ven. Anālayo's Excursions into the Thought-World of the Pāli Discourses, page 244-245, Pariyatti: 2012

Highly recommended book.

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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Re:

Post by manas »

I'd like to see this clarified. I think that it's not the fact that we want to attain jhana that hinders us from attaining it. I think the problem is that, if you are focusing on the breath, with the anticipation in the back of your mind of geting to 1st jhana, you are not totaly focused on the breath. It is probably a form of restlessness, but I think this distinction, if true, must be made. It's not desiring jhana that prevents you from attaining it. It's a more a result of a defective focus, due to the antecipation of jhana, due to not being focused with your whole mind on the object.

This is a subtle difference, but it explains the (apparent) contradiction that to get to jhana you have to not desire it.
Hi Modus,
this written on phone, so briefly: what you said, that's what I was getting at. We agree.
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Sati1 »

Hi Sarah,
SarathW wrote:Hi Satti
Please to see that you are a dedicated meditator.
I am not sure whether I ever experienced rapture. (because I do not have a teacher)
Could you explain how it feel like.
Anyone else in this forum can answer my question if you have personally experience it.
:)
Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body. For me it came spontaneously early on, but then It stopped for several months because I was trying to get it. That was very frustrating. Even when I discovered the trying to be the cause of the cessation, I found it very hard to stop trying. It got harder to let go of the desire the more I read about jhanas and wished the rapture back. Eventually I realized that the true benefit of meditation is not the rapture one can attain, but the ability to see things clearly during the day and release the vast amount of concepts, urges, cravings, etc that burden us. That realization was a huge relief. As far as I understand, several meditation masters such as Thich Nhat Hanh and Ven. Vimalarasi argue that jhanas aren't even necessary for liberation, at least at the early stages. My advice would be not to bother with trying to feel anything during meditation, but just to cultivate mindfulness of breathing.
manas wrote: I'd like to see this clarified. I think that it's not the fact that we want to attain jhana that hinders us from attaining it. I think the problem is that, if you are focusing on the breath, with the anticipation in the back of your mind of geting to 1st jhana, you are not totaly focused on the breath. It is probably a form of restlessness, but I think this distinction, if true, must be made. It's not desiring jhana that prevents you from attaining it. It's a more a result of a defective focus, due to the antecipation of jhana, due to not being focused with your whole mind on the object.

This is a subtle difference, but it explains the (apparent) contradiction that to get to jhana you have to not desire it.

I would agree with manas that there is a way to strive for jhanas without craving them, but that the distinction is subtle and hard to navigate. It's the distinction between Right Effort and Craving.
Sati1

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"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Satti1 wrote: Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body.
I tried to describe it yesterday but I couldn't. For me, it's true that it's pleasurable. But it's not heavy, like sensual pleasures. SarathW, if you have experienced the deep peace that comes with a good sitting practice, you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

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seeker242 wrote: Or, you could say that Jhana pleasure has the potential to lead to "higher state" or "closer to enlightenment" or whatever you want to call it. Whereas sensual pleasure has no potential for that at all.
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

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Modus.Ponens wrote:...you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
I've experienced it like a mild electric shock which persists pleasantly.
( I used to be an electrician ;) )
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by manas »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Satti1 wrote: Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body.
I tried to describe it yesterday but I couldn't. For me, it's true that it's pleasurable. But it's not heavy, like sensual pleasures. SarathW, if you have experienced the deep peace that comes with a good sitting practice, you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
From what I have read over my time here, piti is not experienced in the same way by all practitioners. I can recall a commentarial passage talking about the burst of energy as an early manifestation, when the meditator has not as yet learnt to stabilize it. I can relate to that. I will just say that, I suspect we need to be more detached, that is the case with me anyway. After all, jhana is not the be-all-and-end-all, it's a pleasant abiding etc, and even the Buddha described it as such, but really we want it for the cessation of all ill, not merely as a pleasant abiding, so I think we need to 'remain calm and don't get too excited' :meditate: , if you know what I mean. For me at this stage, it's kind of a happy mental / emotional feeling, but in this body. Now that is unusual in my life experience, and yes it's not like sensual pleasure...

So, like learning a musical instrument, practice, practice, practice! And, as much virtue, mindfulness in daily life, and 'turning away' from sensuality as possible as well, will help with this endeavour, I think.

I'm glad we are all able to have a discussion about this.

metta,
manas.
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:...you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
I've experienced it like a mild electric shock which persists pleasantly.
( I used to be an electrician ;) )
That's a good aditional description. It describes the thingling part.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Zom »

Subj. answer: Because jhana pleasure is a pleasure of abandoning sensual pleasures:

1st jhana formula:
"..quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from (this) seclusion..."
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Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote: 1st jhana formula:
"..quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from (this) seclusion..."
Yes, good point.
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