A question about one of the 5 percepts

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villkorkarma
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A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:54 am

What is outlaw sexual activities? Isnt all sex forbidden?



http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/5precepts.html
Last edited by villkorkarma on Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
dont hurt anyone in any sort of way

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:13 am

Dear villkorkarma,

Ven. Bodhi wrote a very nice article about taking the refuges and precepts here. Here is an extract in answer to your question.

3. The Third Precept: Abstinence from Misconduct in regard to Sense Pleasures

The third precept reads: Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from misconduct in regard to sense pleasures." The word kama has the general meaning of sense pleasure or sensual desire, but the commentaries explain it as sexual relations (methunasamacara), an interpretation supported by the suttas. Micchacara means wrong modes of conduct. Thus the precept enjoins abstinence from improper or illicit sexual relations.

Misconduct is regard to sense pleasures is formally defined as "the volition with sexual intent occurring through the bodily door, causing transgression with an illicit partner".[8] The primary question this definition elicits is: who is to qualify as an illicit partner? For men, the text lists twenty types of women who are illicit partners. These can be grouped into three categories: (1) a woman who is under the protection of elders or other authorities charged with her care, e.g., a girl being cared for by parents, by an older brother or sister, by other relatives, or by the family as a whole; (2) a woman who is prohibited by convention, that is, close relatives forbidden under family tradition, nuns and other women vowed to observe celibacy as a spiritual discipline, and those forbidden as partners under the law of the land; and (3) a woman who is married or engaged to another man, even one bound to another man only by a temporary agreement. In the case of women, for those who are married any man other than a husband is an illicit partner. For all women a man forbidden by tradition or under religious rules is prohibited as a partner. For both men and women any violent, forced, or coercive union, whether by physical compulsion or psychological pressure, can be regarded as a transgression of the precept even when the partner is not otherwise illicit. But a man or woman who is widowed or divorced can freely remarry according to choice.

The texts mention four factors which must be present for a breach of the precept to be incurred: (1) an illicit partner, as defined above; (2) the thought or volition of engaging in sexual union with that person; (3) the act of engaging in union; and (4) the acceptance of the union. This last factor is added for the purpose of excluding from violation those who are unwillingly forced into improper sexual relations.

The degree of moral gravity involved in the offense is determined by the force of the lust motivating the action and the qualities of the person against whom the transgression is committed. If the transgression involves someone of high spiritual qualities, the lust is strong, and force is used, the blame is heavier than when the partner has less developed qualities, the lust is weak, and no force is used. The most serious violations are incest and the rape of an arahant (or arahatess). The underlying root is always greed accompanied by delusion.

:anjali:
Peace,
James

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:28 am

Thank you so Mkoll It was the answer I was looking for.
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:06 am

I dont get why a arahant should be raped?!
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby appicchato » Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:09 am

I dont get why a arahant should be raped?!


He/she shouldn't be...nor anyone else...

Maybe try reading that again for the intended context...

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:21 pm

I have readed It and its just sound like that an Arahant can be raped
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:04 pm

villkorkarma wrote:I have readed It and its just sound like that an Arahant can be raped

Yes, it does talk about that. An Arahant can also be killed, but it's obviously not something to be encouraged...

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:46 pm

I dont Think an arahant can be killed . yes he can
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:51 pm

now i remember i read it somewhere on this forum, anyway its sounds very strange but not impossible oh yeah s n goenkaji spoked about a person who cut up people who then was beeing upcut himself.
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:25 am

villkorkarma wrote:now i remember i read it somewhere on this forum, anyway its sounds very strange but not impossible oh yeah s n goenkaji spoked about a person who cut up people who then was beeing upcut himself.



thats what my friends would call 'karma'
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:27 am

villkorkarma wrote:I dont Think an arahant can be killed . yes he can

Death of Maha-Moggallana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#ch10

Now, not long after the Blessed One's departure, Bāhiya was attacked & killed by a cow with a young calf. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Sāvatthī, after the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw that Bāhiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bāhiya's body, monks, and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died."
...
"Monks, Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:21 pm

But what I have read a arahant cant be killed with out have done something very bad and an arhant cant do It what I have understand because when the equanimity is perfect the enlightenment is perfect and when one have reach the equanimity the stagnation is gone and love compassion sympathic joy have harmonized the warmth in faith so the love and so on bind it selves and coming out unchanged.? So how could an arahant be killed?or raped i was thinking. (Goenka said that you dont punished in the future for things one have did but here and now.)
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby villkorkarma » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:28 pm

It didnt go. yes it didnt go.
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:37 pm

villkorkarma wrote: So how could an arahant be killed?or raped i was thinking.

Presumably because of past kamma.

See, for example, this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html
This is not about Arahants, but it does explain that
(iv) "But here some person abstains from killing living beings... and has right view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.

18. (iv) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.[12] But (perhaps) the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him earlier, or the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him later, or wrong view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. And that was why, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappeared in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. But since he has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view, he will feel the result of that here and now, or in his next rebirth, or in some subsequent existence.[13]

Footnotes:
[12] This was what happened to Queen Mallika, wife of King Pasenadi, who had led a good life, generous, keeping the Five Precepts, and the Eight Precepts on Uposatha days and so on, but once she did evil, having sexual relations with a dog. This unconfessed evil weighed heavily on her mind and she remembered it when dying. As a result she spent seven days in hell. Her power of goodness from the doing of many good kammas then gave her rebirth in a heavenly world. See Dhammapada Commentary, iii, 119-123.

[13] Though this virtuous and good person has obtained a low rebirth through the power of previously done evil kamma, still the good kamma made by him will mature sooner or later, when it gets a chance.

:anjali:
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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:44 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
villkorkarma wrote: So how could an arahant be killed?or raped i was thinking.

Presumably because of past kamma.


Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:57 pm

daverupa wrote:Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.

Of course, which is why I said "presumably" and quoted a sutta from the Buddha on the matter, which seemed quite clear...

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:04 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.

Of course, which is why I said "presumably" and quoted a sutta from the Buddha on the matter, which seemed quite clear...

:anjali:
Mike


I had wondered whether that quote, since it only discussed kamma, was liable to being misunderstood, that's all.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby Aloka » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:06 pm

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
villkorkarma wrote: So how could an arahant be killed?or raped i was thinking.

Presumably because of past kamma.


Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.


Also check SN 36.21

Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.021.nypo.html



..and AN 4.77 : Unconjecturable

The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html

.

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:19 pm

Dave, Aloka,

I appreciate your concern about accuracy, but did either of you take the time to carefully read the sutta that I referred to and quoted from?
The Buddha wrote:... But (perhaps) the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him earlier, or the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him later, or wrong view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. ...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19507#p273634

It's not suggesting a definitive, obvious, cause-and-effect. In fact, quite the opposite. That's why I chose it, because it already has that balance to it.

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Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Postby daverupa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:28 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Dave, Aloka,

I appreciate your concern about accuracy, but did either of you take the time to carefully read the sutta that I referred to and quoted from?


Yes indeed. But the Sivaka Sutta kept running through my head.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]


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