the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Honestly clw, who do you hold in higher esteem, yourself or the Buddha, honestly now???
You need to go way back in this gawdforsaken thread. Craig worked very hard to interpret any suggestion of rebirth in the suttas as being figurative, referring only rebirth from moment to moment sort of thing. And seemingly no evidence could count against such an interpretation. And in this he is supposedly following Buddhadasa point of view.



And what evidence would persuade you that rebirth is a fools doctrine?

I joke of course, I know nothing would persuade you otherwise :) you have too much invested in it


Too be fair you did give a near accurate account of my posts :smile:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:14 am

honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:20 am

lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.



Once again, you would be far better arguing against me by using logical argument and sutta quotes. Until then you just stand there, holding an empty cup.


Emotional wailings mean nothing to me I'm afraid.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:25 am

lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.



Tell me, how do you understand ditthi (views)?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:25 am

lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
The question is, then, why bother? It does get rather fruitless sometimes arguing with the anti-rebirthers. The only value I can see in such debates is in helping clarifying one's one thinking on a subject.

Read a few pages forward and backwards from here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=320#p15747

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=380#p16211
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:27 am

clw_uk wrote:
I joke of course, I know nothing would persuade you otherwise you have too much invested in it
You have iddhis now? You have no idea if I believe in or do not believe in rebirth.


Too be fair you did give a near accurate account of my posts :
Of course.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I joke of course, I know nothing would persuade you otherwise you have too much invested in it
You have iddhis now? You have no idea if I believe in or do not believe in rebirth.



No but when in your past posts you say that "something is lost without rebirth" (paraphrased), this gives a hint
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
The question is, then, why bother? It does get rather fruitless sometimes arguing with the anti-rebirthers. The only value I can see in such debates is in helping clarifying one's one thinking on a subject.

Read a few pages forward and backwards from here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=320#p15747



A straw man tilt :shock:

"Anti-rebirther"!!! Where?????
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
The question is, then, why bother? It does get rather fruitless sometimes arguing with the anti-rebirthers. The only value I can see in such debates is in helping clarifying one's one thinking on a subject.

Read a few pages forward and backwards from here:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=320#p15747

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=380#p16211


A straw man tilt :shock:

"Anti-rebirther"!!! Where?????
So, you now believe in rebirth, not just the figurative version you have been championing for so long here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:36 am

Tilt me old man have I not stated before, it's not about rebirth or no rebirth
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:40 am

lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.


Actually, start reading from here on: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16758 It is worth a read.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:41 am

clw_uk wrote:Tilt me old man have I not stated before, it's not about rebirth or no rebirth
If you say so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.


Actually, start reading from here on: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16758 It is worth a read.




Notice that someone changes ditthi, while another remains fixed and immobile ;)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:00 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.


Actually, start reading from here on: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16758 It is worth a read.




Notice that someone changes ditthi, while another remains fixed and immobile
I am glad you recognize your fixed, immobile line of thought. You have someone as learned and practiced as Ajahn Dhammanando neatly demolishing your position, and you just go blithely on as if nothing was really said at all that would contradict your point of view. It is an amazing sight to behold.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:03 am

You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:09 am

clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:09 am

clw_uk wrote:
In the First Noble Truth, Buddha taught from simple to more subtle. The subtle part was "in short, clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha". The dukkha is in the clinging. Regarding 'birth is dukkha', this simply means birth of a child is dukkha. For the mother it is dukkha and for the helpless child it is dukkha. However, if a mother & parents can practise non-attachment, birth, just like aging, sickness & death, will not be dukkha. Dukkha is attachment.



You are completely correct, but expanding on my previous post, he is describing a cycle, if rebirth is taking out then the whole of dependent origination, which can be reguarded as expounding further on the 2nd noble truth, falls apart. Dependent origination is a self perpetuating system (until liberation). If nothing carries on past death then death would be reguarded as its end not liberation.

Going back to another point on birth, yes in one sense birth is dukkha due to suffering involved in the birth process, but birth itself still needs craving behind it as all dukkha has craving behind it. Craving must have been there in past for dukkha to have arrisen in the first place, for the dukkha of birth to have arrisen

What about the infant, if you take out rebirth from previous life then the infant in effect has no attachment/craving that could correlate to the dukkha or rebirth for it is a new being into exsistence, but if birth is dukkha then it has to have craving behind it at the individual level, therefore birth wouldnt be included in the 1st noble truth if there was just one birth as it would be at odds with the 2nd truth, that dukkha arises due to an indivuals craving/attachment.

Just to note i dont have a firm belief in rebirth as i have not experienced anything as of yet to verify it i just have confidence and i also accept that my reasoning may be at fault.

Metta
Craig :twothumbsup:


Taken from the first few pages of this debate, four years ago

What a dogmatist I am :jumping:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.



Of course rebirth is there, as it's pragmatic


I didn't appreciate this before.

However you can still practice with or without such a taint
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:15 am

You did not supply the date of this statement. It could be from your very early period. Also, it is not very clearly written, but it does seem to be an improvement over your anti-literal rebirth stance, at least acknowledging literal rebirth is taught in the suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:16 am

Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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