the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.



Of course rebirth is there, as it's pragmatic


I didn't appreciate this before.

However you can still practice with or without such a taint
Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.




Page 5, last post
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:20 am

clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.



And so might be materialism however the point is of course the affect said view has on a "person".
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

clw_uk wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.




Page 5, last post
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.



No I'm somewhere else :lol: :alien:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:24 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.



No I'm somewhere else :lol: :alien:
Okay; however, sadly your debate skills are still in the 20's of this thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:25 am

And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.



Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:35 am

clw_uk wrote:
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.



Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
When it comes to right view of the truth, I'll listen to Ven D before I would listen to you, but your "right view of the truth" was neatly shown to be wrong, repeatedly.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.



Because that wasn't the right view of the truths
When it comes to right view of the truth, I'll listen to Ven D before I would listen to you, but your "right view of the truth" was neatly shown to be wrong, repeatedly.


Quid est veritas?


Sorry couldn't resist lol


That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:21 pm

clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16747
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16747




And a post from years ago is relevant how?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:33 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
That's fine :) but as I said, his responses are ... Old
Yes, well, Ajahn Dhammanando's postings are still worth reading, and it is interesting watching the "old" you try to wriggle your way out of what Ajahn D is clearly explaining.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41&start=440#p16747




And a post from years ago is relevant how?
So, you now hold a very different point of view? As I said, Ven Dhammanando's comments are instructive in the information they give and for that are worth reading, and it is also intertesting reading your old msgs as being instructive in how not to argue a point.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:40 am

The view isn't important in of itself, it's more about the action and path it leads us down
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby AJungianIdeal » Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:28 am

clw_uk wrote:
chownah wrote:
AJungianIdeal wrote:I'm trying real hard to try and make rebirth mesh with neuroscience. Does rebirth depend on a dualistic conception of the mind? If not, what gets "transferred" as it was?

DNA?
chownah



Even if it did happen, and you knew how it happened, would that liberate your mind from dukkha?


Well, I could stop being concerned for children being murdered in war zones passing into nothingness; Have some peace that they will never have another chance at consciousness and perhaps learning the dharma? Hell, even just having a chance to get through adolescences would be nifty.

But it if it feels to wishful it probably is.

As for DNA, the 1 thing I know about rebirth is that it is not familial or generational or anything like that.

To be less angry. I've been obsessing with death and I know it's not healthy.
Last edited by AJungianIdeal on Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:17 am

Dear AJungianIdeal,

The Buddha actually recommended wise attention to the perception of death to remove attachment for life (AN 7.46 on accesstoinsight.org). Here's a quote from Ajahn Chah in the book Food for the Heart:

Being heedless is like being dead. Ask yourself, “Will I have time to practice when I die?” Constantly ask, “When will I die?” If we contemplate in this way, our mind will be alert every second. When there is no heedlessness, sati will atuomatically follow. Wisdom will be clear, seeing all things as they truly are. Mindfulness will guard the mind, knowing the arising of sensations at all times, day and night. That is to have sati. To have sati is to be composed. To be composed is to be heedful. If one is heedful then one is practicing rightly. This is our responsibility.


:anjali:

EDIT: added reference
Peace,
James
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:54 am

Well, I could stop being concerned for children being murdered in war zones passing into nothingness; Have some peace that they will never have another chance at consciousness and perhaps learning the dharma?


The point is not wanting things to be as they are. However you can still feel dukkha while being a materialist who believes in materialist oblivion, via not wanting the children to experience horrible death.

The point is to let go in every circumstance, as well as let go of every viewpoint. Therefore it doesnt matter if you know the ontological reality, its more about ow certain views influence people.



As for DNA, the 1 thing I know about rebirth is that it is not familial or generational or anything like that.


How do you "know" that?


To be less angry. I've been obsessing with death and I know it's not healthy.


Depends ... keeping anicca in mind is wholesome
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:48 am

clw_uk wrote:The view isn't important in of itself, it's more about the action and path it leads us down

... which demonstrates the importance of the view.

What you are saying is like saying "a red light isn't important in and of itself, it's more about whether you actually stop at the intersection." True only if one assumes that one will act properly regardless of the sign. But that is simply not the case. Why would you stop if don't see the light? You'd assume there is no danger and keep on going, in all likelihood.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:17 am

... which demonstrates the importance of the view.


Its helpful but not always important


What you are saying is like saying "a red light isn't important in and of itself, it's more about whether you actually stop at the intersection." True only if one assumes that one will act properly regardless of the sign. But that is simply not the case. Why would you stop if don't see the light? You'd assume there is no danger and keep on going, in all likelihood.



Not exactly, although I see where your coming from

You can see the sign, and know it means danger and stop

You can see the sign, ignore it and be harmed

You can see the sign, misinterpret it and be harmed

You can not see the sign at all

However some people can not see the sign, and still skip danger ;)

OR some people can ignore the sign, and skip danger ;)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:30 am

So, you now hold a very different point of view? As I said, Ven Dhammanando's comments are instructive in the information they give and for that are worth reading, and it is also intertesting reading your old msgs as being instructive in how not to argue a point.



Really? :roll:

This whole post seems to show that you have not attempted, or have failed, to understand my posts
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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