the great vegetarian debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:59 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Yes, the brain is mostly made up of fat.


Yes, and please tell me from which kind. :)

Triacylglicerides and phospholipids.

Alex123 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:The body can make fat from carbohydrates

:jawdrop:
Human body? Where did you find that?!!

Glycolysis, pyruvate oxidation, the citric acid cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation make up cellular respiration. This is the process that mitochondria, the "power plants" of cells, use to generate energy. Glycolysis turns glucose (a simple sugar that your body can get from metabolizing carbohydrates) into pyruvate which is oxidized into Acetyl CoA which then goes to the citric acid cycle. That Acetyl CoA can also be used to make fatty acids.

"Lipogenesis is the process by which acetyl-CoA is converted to fatty acids. The former is an intermediate stage in metabolism of simple sugars, such as glucose, a source of energy of living organisms. Through lipogenesis and subsequent Triglyceride synthesis, the energy can be efficiently stored in the form of fats. Lipogenesis encompasses the process of fatty acid synthesis."
-wikipedia entry for 'lipogenesis'

The only fatty acids that humans need to actually ingest because our bodies can't synthesize them are the two kinds of essential fatty acids (EFAs): omega-6 (linoleic acid) and omega-3 (alpha-linolenic acid (ALA)). Both of these can be found abundantly in plant foods.
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greenjuice
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby greenjuice » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:13 pm

Afaik, it is the unsaturated (plant) fats that body uses to rebuild cell membranes, whereas saturated fats are used for energy (or stored for such later use if there are enough carbs ingested).

Also, "essential" means precisely that- the body can'make it so it an essential part of diet, goes for both fatty and amino acids.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:11 am

Anyone wanting to go on vegetarianism should read a little about the amount of calories he/she needs and how to divide it into carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins and minerals.

Be a vegetarian is not only to stop eating meat. You have to balance your diet without that meal/fish.

There are a lot of people who do a lot of sport, sport of competition like athleticism, like body building, like marathons and they are vegetarian and even vegan. All of this is very easy to find in a simple search on Internet.

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:53 am

What I'd like to say is to do what works for you. If vegetarianism does, then follow it. However, I don't think that it is right to force it on everywhere.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby binocular » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:18 pm

Alex123 wrote:What I'd like to say is to do what works for you. If vegetarianism does, then follow it. However, I don't think that it is right to force it on everywhere.

Who is forcing it?
And why should that person be obeyed?

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:32 pm

I think its just Alex's conscience talking!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:08 am

The Buddha ate meat

Life feeds of life

Buddha didn't enforce vegetarianism

Puzzle solved :woohoo:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:20 am

clw_uk wrote:The Buddha ate meat

Life feeds of life

Buddha didn't enforce vegetarianism

Puzzle solved :woohoo:


Seemingly true, but at the same time the Buddha made strict rules that made it much harder to eat meat and eat a lot of meat, so obviously the buddha was absolutely not encouraging meat eating, otherwise he would have made no rules at all, since he made it much harder to acquire and eat as much meat, one has to assume that the buddha obviously believed it was better to eat less or no meat, for instance I can't possibly imagine the buddha complaining he wasn't getting enough meat, given that 95% of the buddha's recorded meal were evidently vegetarian, would that pro meat eating crowd could be so enlightened.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:21 am

duplicate
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:22 am

Seemingly true, but at the same time the Buddha made strict rules that made it much harder to eat meat and eat a lot of meat, so obviously the buddha was absolutely not encouraging meat eating, otherwise he would have made no rules at all, since he made it much harder to acquire and eat as much meat, one has to assume that the buddha obviously believed it was better to eat less or no meat, for instance I can't possibly imagine the buddha complaining he wasn't getting enough meat, would that pro meat eating crowd could be so enlightened.



Of course, the point is not killing and also not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:23 am

clw_uk wrote:....not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana


:strawman:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:33 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:....not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana


:strawman:



Hardly
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:....not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana


:strawman:



Hardly


I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:46 am


I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.


It's implied by some posts
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Seemingly true, but at the same time the Buddha made strict rules that made it much harder to eat meat and eat a lot of meat, so obviously the buddha was absolutely not encouraging meat eating, otherwise he would have made no rules at all, since he made it much harder to acquire and eat as much meat, one has to assume that the buddha obviously believed it was better to eat less or no meat, for instance I can't possibly imagine the buddha complaining he wasn't getting enough meat, would that pro meat eating crowd could be so enlightened.



Of course, the point is not killing and also not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana


wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:

I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.


It's implied by some posts


It's hard to say what's implied. How about focussing on Theravada teachings and practices which seem to be relevant to the issue? For example the first precept, modern application of the 3-fold rule, butchery as wrong livelihood, developing metta for all beings, etc.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:48 pm

nekete wrote:wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?


I'd feel like a hypocrite if I bought meat. I'm a Buddhist so I'm not going to kill animals or butcher them, but I'd be expecting somebody else to do it - it doesn't feel right to me.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:07 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
nekete wrote:wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?


I'd feel like a hypocrite if I bought meat. I'm a Buddhist so I'm not going to kill animals or butcher them, but I'd be expecting somebody else to do it - it doesn't feel right to me.


But aren't many or most herbivores going to be eaten by some predators anyway? It is their fate, and it sucks. :weep: Samsara is dukkha.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:14 pm

wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?



Ideally no one should kill, however if someone had invited you for a meal and offers you left over meat then there is no harm in eating it, since it was going in the bin anyway. In fact to reject it because of the "idealism" of being a vegetarian would be more unskilful than eating the meat, since it would be clinging to rites and rituals. You would be acting out of aversion and delusion


Hence why the Buddha ate meat and allowed his monks to do so, but forbade them from killing or having animals killed for them.
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:17 pm

Of course a easy way out of all this is for humans to develop lab grown meat


No animals killed and all the nutrition, everyone's happy
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan


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