Buddhists are losers?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by binocular »

Modus.Ponens wrote:I assume they roll their eyes because they imediatly associate that with catholics who take the bible as the unquestionable word of god. And the knee jerk reaction is to condemn that.
For example, one of them, claiming to be a Buddhist, but a vehement opponent of the Pali Canon (although he admits to never having read it), argues that he is living in the present moment, which is why he has neither use nor need for old texts.
By worldy terms, the man's a winner, of course.
I had a bit of the same reaction, actualy. Maybe that's why I found it funny. But it's not reasonable for a buddhist to roll eyes when another buddhist says that the word of the Buddha constitutes the most important thing ever recorded. It's actualy the most common sense answer you can give to that question.
The practical lesson I've learned is that for the most part, it is better to keep my interest in Buddhism secret. Although it's difficult to live a double life like that.
When asked at a job interview "What are your interests?" replying "I'm interested in making an end to suffering" is _not_ a good answer.
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barcsimalsi
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by barcsimalsi »

binocular wrote: The practical lesson I've learned is that for the most part, it is better to keep my interest in Buddhism secret. Although it's difficult to live a double life like that.
When asked at a job interview "What are your interests?" replying "I'm interested in making an end to suffering" is _not_ a good answer.
Indeed, most of my friends(even Buddhist)advice me not to take the teaching too seriously, they try to sound like a very confident atheist but the weird thing is every time they went to the temple they acted like pagans.

I think the prejudice of the community towards avid Buddhist is the fear of disconnecting with friends, family members, employees due to their changing attitude towards worldly interest. In this regard, it is not surprising when people will say anything to discourage you.
binocular
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by binocular »

barcsimalsi wrote:I think the prejudice of the community towards avid Buddhist is the fear of disconnecting with friends, family members, employees due to their changing attitude towards worldly interest.
Hm. So you think that those worldly people are just worried about avid Buddhists?

I'm trying to understand how come some worldly people tend to have that aversion to Buddhism and the people serious about it. So far, though, I've been able to discover only that some of these worldly people have very skewed ideas about Buddhism (so skewed that it would take considerable effort on their part to change that, it's far too much for me to try to clarify things in one conversation).
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barcsimalsi
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by barcsimalsi »

binocular wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:I think the prejudice of the community towards avid Buddhist is the fear of disconnecting with friends, family members, employees due to their changing attitude towards worldly interest.
Hm. So you think that those worldly people are just worried about avid Buddhists?
That’s what my experience tells me. Unless it involves politics or fanatics from other faith, i don’t see much complexity in such stereotype.
binocular wrote:I'm trying to understand how come some worldly people tend to have that aversion to Buddhism and the people serious about it. So far, though, I've been able to discover only that some of these worldly people have very skewed ideas about Buddhism (so skewed that it would take considerable effort on their part to change that, it's far too much for me to try to clarify things in one conversation).
As aversion has to do with attachment and expectation, what else can it be other than trying to dismiss the teaching that is criticizing their pride and joy?
It happens to other faith as well.
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DNS
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by DNS »

robertk wrote: The OP comment I quoted talked about worldly success.
The Buddhists I know are in many cases more successful(from the worldly view) than most of my non- Buddhist friends. I know a chief justice, an ambassador , two generals and a vice admiral, (plus lawyers, professors, and other riffraff). I do have one non Buddhist friend who is wealthy businessman. Naturally some of my Buddhist friends are not (yet) established in careers, and it doesn't really matter in the long run whether one is rich or poor, beautiful or ugly: but it struck me as odd that Buddhists would be perceived as "worldly losers".
It should be obvious that if wisdom is developing then it understands about all aspects of life: so it must be that careers become easier to manage. Calm and confidence, the side effects of even a little understanding , attract women/men etc. It is just the way things work.
If you are referring to Western-born convert Buddhists, there have been at least a few articles written about the yuppiefication of Western Buddhism with many retreats and programs costing several hundred dollars, sometimes even more. There has been some effort, especially among Theravada centers at least to offer the teachings on sliding scale or completely on dana basis of what the participants can afford.
binocular
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by binocular »

barcsimalsi wrote:
binocular wrote:Hm. So you think that those worldly people are just worried about avid Buddhists?
That’s what my experience tells me. Unless it involves politics or fanatics from other faith, i don’t see much complexity in such stereotype.
Come to think of it, perhaps worldly people simply think that affection and any kind of business interest would be wasted on an avid Buddhist, so they shun those Buddhists, or indirectly or directly threaten to shun them.
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Paribbajaka »

I actually think that this can be applied to followers of any religions. Christians that take Jesus' teachings on worldly wealth seriously, Hindus that take the ascetic path, etc. There are Buddhists that pursue worldly success and the spiritual life at the same time (canonically obviously Anathapindaka but many who are alive today as well) much as there are Christians/Muslims/Hindus who do the same. It is also important to remember the Pali Canon has pieces such as the Mangala Sutta which are clearly aimed at those who are still in the world.
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Crazy cloud »

robertk wrote:I saw this on another thread.

For all practical intents and purposes, being a Buddhist means that one will quite likely be a loser in worldly terms. Not necessarily a doormat, but quite likely a loser.
There is a real, visible, measurable worldly price that one has to be willing to pay for practicing Buddhism.
Perhaps we can examine this idea on this thread.
It's only a loss if there where something to lose in the first place :)

before enlightenment: chop wood and carry water

after enlightenment: chop wood and carry water

If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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ihrjordan
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by ihrjordan »

Even if Buddhists are losers in worldly terms what does that really mean? Being a winner means having to be around people all the time, make money, gain fame, entertain people (I could go on and on) Why is it really so bad to be a loser? For me personally it doesn't sound to bad to know we're all worthless it's like a weight lifted off your shoulders to know that you're worth nothing.Quite simply it feels like freedom. I think the real problem is everyone thinks they're special and destined for greatness and fame, renown...blah blah blah and as a result you have all these SELF THOUGHT supermodels, intellects, movie stars, w.e. Seriously being a loser is probably the best thing in the world to be Using the literal meaning and playing off the word :toast:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
Denisa
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Denisa »

I saw two separate threads about two elder monks (20 or so years in robe) leaving the Order due to falling in love with two women. From the posts there it seems some considered them as losers, I do feel the same. I remember reading Buddha saying one who disrobe due to a woman is similar to a warrior who run away after losing the battle.

Also, I heard a story where a boy asking permission to ordain and the parents and relatives accused him of being a looser for not developing a career, earning money, having a wife and children...

In the end three of them are Buddhist losers in their respective context. But I think in Dhamma way becoming the biggest loser (an Arahant) is the highest goal which will make one to lose the Samsara for ever.
pegembara
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by pegembara »

Can you lose things that are not truly yours in the first place? You can build beautiful and elaborate sandcastles and enjoy them while they last. You just can't take them home with you.
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Gain arises for an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person. He does not reflect, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by tiltbillings »

Denisa wrote:I saw two separate threads about two elder monks (20 or so years in robe) leaving the Order due to falling in love with two women. From the posts there it seems some considered them as losers, I do feel the same. I remember reading Buddha saying one who disrobe due to a woman is similar to a warrior who run away after losing the battle.
I would not be so judgmental, not knowing the all that was at play in their choices.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Denisa
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Denisa »

tiltbillings wrote:I would not be so judgmental, not knowing the all that was at play in their choices.
You mean something like that the woman threatened the monk: "if you don't marry me I'll commit suicide!" So, out of compassion to save that being, the monk let go of his robe and celibacy... Could be!

For sure my feeling towards that issue is not THE final judgment, neither yours, but I believe Dhamma has enough medicine for this kind of situations if one is mindful and willing to apply them, especially after 20 years being a monk of some note!

EDIT: Sometimes I noticed a bit of "minimisation" when come to such issues.
Last edited by Denisa on Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Denisa
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Post by Denisa »

pegembara wrote:Can you lose things that are not truly yours in the first place? You can build beautiful and elaborate sandcastles and enjoy them while they last. You just can't take them home with you.
62. The fool worries, thinking, "I have sons, I have wealth." Indeed, when he himself is not his own, whence are sons, whence is wealth?

Dhammapada
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