What a great thread !

[appicchato]

Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation

Apples and oranges...

...which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.

Please tell us how...and how you would know this...

[tiltbillings]

Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation

Apples and oranges...

You are going to need to be a bit more expansive. This comments says nothing, but be careful or you will end up in a meaningless and endless debate that goes nowhere and signifies nothing.

...which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.

Please tell us how...and how you would know this...

You are telling me that the jhanas cannot in any way colored by ones beliefs? Do not forget, the jhanas are hardly exclusive to Buddhism, and are the basis for any number of wrong believes as the fiirst discourse in the DN states, but I always willing to learn.

[christopher:::]

... be careful or you will end up in a meaningless and endless debate that goes nowhere and signifies nothing..

Wise to keep an eye out for that, definitely..!!

[PeterB]

Greetings Tilt,

I think that's true but it's always worth remembering that people come to the Dhamma in different ways through different doors.

If people are standing in the new-agey fluffy doorway, do we wish to invite them in, or do we ask them to leave?

People are at where people are at... we need not expect commonality.

Metta,
Retro.

If the " we " is the community of pracitioners I think we should invite them in.
It might though be kind to point out that they may have to leave some of the bundle of ideas they are carrying outside, that otherwise they may not fit through the doorway. That they may have to leave... at least for the time being, mayan calenders, and harmonic convergence, and hindu reincarnation, and the pope etc, in the porch. Because if they try to bring them with them , they might find themselves stuck in the doorway, not as a result of anyones attempt to exclude them, but because they have in effect excluded themselves.

[chicka-Dee]

I think you are making an awful lot of assumptions about what 'baggage' someone may, or may not, be holding onto.

That said, I also appreciate your point about excluding oneself.

There is much to think about here, from all supposed 'sides'.

I wish you all well,

Dee

[PeterB]

I am making no assumptions about the baggage that any given individual might be carrying, except when they have introduced themselves for example on another forum saying that the world is going to change along with everyones " consciousness " after 2012 , which btw is a real example but not as far as I know a view held by anyone on this forum, its just a for instance.. The fact is though unless we are Buddhas we all carry baggage in the way of wrong views. If that baggage is a of particular critical mass,it will be very difficult for the person carrying it to hear what is being said to them. This is a matter of common experience in Buddhist circles. I often think of the late Will Roger's maxim. " Its not what we dont know that hurts us, its what we think we know that aint so ".
There are cetain basics according to the Buddha, like Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta. Like the Four Noble Truths, like the Eightfold Noble Path. Some other paths may have some of these, but its a full time job putting them into action.

[chicka-Dee]

The fact is though unless we are Buddhas we all carry baggage in the way of wrong views. If that baggage is a of particular critical mass,it will be very difficult for the person carrying it to hear what is being said to them. This is a matter of common experience in Buddhist circles. I often think of the late Will Roger's maxim. " Its not what we dont know that hurts us, its what we think we know that aint so ".
There are cetain basics according to the Buddha, like Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta. Like the Four Noble Truths, like the Eightfold Noble Path. Some other paths may have some of these, but its a full time job putting them into action.

Agreed.