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Dependent Origination - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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stuka
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby stuka » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:04 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:35 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:16 am


meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:19 pm


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bodom
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby bodom » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:41 pm

I think Ajahn Chah sums up this argument pretty well:

You have already studied and read about paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination) in the books, and what's set out there is correct as far as it goes, but in reality you're not able to keep up with the process as it actually occurs. It's like falling out of a tree: in a flash, you've fallen all the way from the top of the tree and hit the ground, and you have no idea how many branches you passed on the way down. When the mind experiences an arammana [1] (mind-object) and is attracted to it, all of a sudden you find yourself experiencing a good mood without being aware of the causes and conditions which led up to it. Of course, on one level the process happens according to the theory described in the scriptures, but at the same time it goes beyond the limitations of the theory. In reality, there are no signs telling you that now it's avijja, now it's sankhara, then it's viññana, now it's nama-rupa and so on. These scholars who see it like that, don't get the chance to read out the list as the process is taking place. Although the Buddha analysed one moment of consciousness and described all the different component parts, to me it's more like falling out of a tree – everything happens so fast you don't have time to reckon how far you've fallen and where you are at any given moment. What you know is that you've hit the ground with a thud, and it hurts!

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:43 pm

Achaan Cha's explanations always touch deeply into what Intuitive knowledge cant find words for. My heart Glows at his words.

Thank you.


Gabriel

:rofl:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:51 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Cittasanto
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:00 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:20 pm

Last edited by Element on Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:28 pm


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:36 pm


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:47 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:03 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:00 pm

There is a sutta that i think gives weight to the view of D.O. as moment to moment and not three lives.

MN - 44:

Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"Precisely this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"Is it the case, lady, that clinging is the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates or is it something separate?"

"Friend Visakha, neither is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


This clearly states that Identitiy i.e. self/i/me comes about through craving as craving will lead to clinging which leeds to being which leeds to birth.
As craving dependens on feeling which the dependeds on contact birth must mean moment to moment birth as there is always contact with the 6 sense bases. This will lead to feeling and if there is ignorance then there will be craving, clinging, being and "birth" of a new false view of Self which is dukkha.

Hope that makes sense
:namaste:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:28 am


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:33 am


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:58 am



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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:03 am


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:16 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:39 am



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