AN 8.20 - Did Bouddha reject Bhikkhu Sangha ?

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AN 8.20 - Did Bouddha reject Bhikkhu Sangha ?

Postby walkart » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:38 pm

Hello dear friends,

Did Bouddha reject the Bhikkhu Sangha here?

Then the Venerable Mahamoggallana grabbed that person by the arm, evicted him through the outer gatehouse, and bolted the door. Then he retourned to the Blessed One and said to him: "I have evicted that person, Bhante. The assembly is pure. Let the Blessed One recite the Patimokkha to the bhikkhus."
"It's astounding and amazing, Moggallana, how that hollow man waited until he was grabbed by the arm." Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhu: "Now, bhikkhus, you yourselves should conduct the uposatha and recite the Patimokkha. From today onward, I will no longer do so. It is impossible and inconceivable that the Tathagata could conduct the uposatha and recite the Patimokkha in an impure assembly"


:thinking:
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Re: AN 8.20 - Did Bouddha reject Bhikkhu Sangha ?

Postby santa100 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:52 pm

It's important to read the full sutta at http://suttacentral.net/an8.20/en, especially:
Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna fixed his attention on the entire Saṅgha of bhikkhus, encompassing their minds with his own mind. He then saw that person sitting in the midst of the Saṅgha of bhikkhus: one who was immoral, of bad character, impure, of suspect behavior, secretive in his actions, not an ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. Having seen him, he rose from his seat, went up to that person, and said to him: “Get up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus.” When this was said, that person remained silent.

A second time … A third time the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna said to that person: “Get up, friend. The Blessed One has seen you. You cannot live in communion with the bhikkhus.” A third time that person remained silent.

Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna grabbed that person by the arm, evicted him through the outer gatehouse, and bolted the door
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Re: AN 8.20 - Did Bouddha reject Bhikkhu Sangha ?

Postby Ananda26 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:33 pm

walkart wrote:Hello dear friends,

Did Bouddha reject the Bhikkhu Sangha here?

Then the Venerable Mahamoggallana grabbed that person by the arm, evicted him through the outer gatehouse, and bolted the door. Then he retourned to the Blessed One and said to him: "I have evicted that person, Bhante. The assembly is pure. Let the Blessed One recite the Patimokkha to the bhikkhus."
"It's astounding and amazing, Moggallana, how that hollow man waited until he was grabbed by the arm." Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhu: "Now, bhikkhus, you yourselves should conduct the uposatha and recite the Patimokkha. From today onward, I will no longer do so. It is impossible and inconceivable that the Tathagata could conduct the uposatha and recite the Patimokkha in an impure assembly"


:thinking:


I would not say he rejected the Sangha. It is impossible that anyone possessing right view would cause a schism in the Sangha.

Buddha had Moggallana remove someone who was not fit to sit with the recital.

It is impossible that the Tathagata could conduct the Uposatha in an impure assembly.
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Re: AN 8.20 - Did Bouddha reject Bhikkhu Sangha ?

Postby gavesako » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:15 pm

The proper conduct of a bhikkhu is to clear any offences (apatti) by confession or other means before the Patimokkha recitation, so that he can be considered pure (parisuddho) and allowed to join the Sangha for the recitation. It seems this monk has concealed his bad behaviour and was therefore corrupting the whole assembly, which is why Moggallana had to literally drag him out. The Vinaya is a "honour system" which only works if the members of the Sangha are willing to train under the Patimokkha rules.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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