W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:

Buddha was a middle-ground betwwen anti/pro-Vedic rituals--
Not that you have shown.
Towards the end of his life, in the seven factors of non-decline. he promotes the perpetuation of old religious rituals of which Vedic rituals would have constituted the overwhelmingly major component
Back up this statement.
Purva Mimamsa was fleshed out by Kumarila Bhatta and Prabhakara , but the basic concepts were always there--inherent in the rituals and sacrfices..without a solid understanding of the underlying mechanics and theory of those rituals, it obviously could not have been performed
History suggest a bit differently. Secondly, their "atheism is at best qualified.
and Brahma and Brahman are NOT the same...One is a God and the other is Pure Conciousness....Is it very hard to understand? Why do non-Indians always mix up between Brahma and Brahman and Brahmin and Brahmanas and Brahma Sutras? and this can be evidenced from the Upanishads themselves
I am not mixing them up. Take a look at the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upanishad, which was known to the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

just google up and read seven factors of non-decline Sutta..it will satisfy your curiosity

and in his paranibbana sutta , see how he profusely praises the folk shrines at Chapala and other places
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:just google up and read seven factors of non-decline Sutta..it will satisfy your curiosity

and in his paranibbana sutta , see how he profusely praises the folk shrines at Chapala and other places
If you make statement such as you did, then you need to back it up. This is response is simply inadequate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

As for the Mīmāṃsā. The following places it well after the time of the Buddha.
The school's origins lie in the scholarly traditions of the final centuries BCE, when the priestly ritualism of Vedic sacrifice was being marginalized by Buddhism and Vedanta. To counteract this challenge, several groups emerged dedicated to demonstrating the validity of the Vedic texts by rigid formulation of rules for their interpretation. The school gathers momentum in the Gupta period with Śābara, and reaches its apex in the 7th to 8th centuries with Kumārila Bhaṭṭa and Prabhākara.

The school for some time in the Early Middle Ages exerted near-dominant influence on learned Hindu thought, and is credited as a major force contributing to the decline of Buddhism in India, but it has fallen into decline in the High Middle Ages and today is all but eclipsed by Vedanta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%ABm%C ... %83s%C4%81
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by daverupa »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:just google up and read seven factors of non-decline Sutta..it will satisfy your curiosity

and in his paranibbana sutta , see how he profusely praises the folk shrines at Chapala and other places
It does not. You said that the Buddha "promotes the perpetuation of old religious rituals" -that isn't this text and it's nowhere in DN 16 either. Probably you are thinking of the sutta which records the Buddha telling Ananda how the Vajjians can experience non-decline, one point of which is that they should sustain their shrine practices.

But when the layfolk depart, the Buddha summons the Sangha and does not tell them to maintain shrine practices. If we match up the suggestions 1:1, the Vajjian shrine practice (#6 in the list) correlates to sequestered living in forest huts.

Your claim is altogether unsupported, Shaswata_Panje. Asking us to use Google is weak stuff.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6590
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Mkoll »

binocular wrote:Can you conceive of "relying on oneself" while you also hold that this self that one is relying on has no substantial, no truly relevant existence, but is simply something changing, fleeting and subject to disappearing?
No, one can't conceive of that because it goes beyond the limits of logic. That's why the Buddha said that it was unwise attention to bother conceiving about it.
"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person... doesn't discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention... This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'"
-MN 2

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:
Has to be permanent? Based on what? Does this implicated permanent selfhhood change?
Can you conceive of "relying on oneself" while you also hold that this self that one is relying on has no substantial, no truly relevant existence, but is simply something changing, fleeting and subject to disappearing?
You answer my questions, I'll be more than happy to answer yours.
Let me add to this, while you are thinking about an answer to my questions. What does your statement == '"Relying on oneself" does require a belief in some kind of relevant selfhood, though. And if this selfhood is to be relevant, then by implication, it has to be permanent' == have to do with the subject at hand?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

daverupa wrote:
Shaswata_Panja wrote:just google up and read seven factors of non-decline Sutta..it will satisfy your curiosity

and in his paranibbana sutta , see how he profusely praises the folk shrines at Chapala and other places
It does not. You said that the Buddha "promotes the perpetuation of old religious rituals" -that isn't this text and it's nowhere in DN 16 either. Probably you are thinking of the sutta which records the Buddha telling Ananda how the Vajjians can experience non-decline, one point of which is that they should sustain their shrine practices.

But when the layfolk depart, the Buddha summons the Sangha and does not tell them to maintain shrine practices. If we match up the suggestions 1:1, the Vajjian shrine practice (#6 in the list) correlates to sequestered living in forest huts.

Your claim is altogether unsupported, Shaswata_Panje. Asking us to use Google is weak stuff.

he made an universal claim and not limited to Vajjians...and anyways by mid sixth century B.C. Vedic rituals were well Established from Punjab till Bengal..from lower reaches of Jammu to the Vindhyas

by the way wikipedia uses these maps extensively

this is circa 1000BC ..

Image
Last edited by Shaswata_Panja on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

binocular wrote:
And I didn't "refuse to" explain myself. I think that there are topics that simply require a particular effort, preexisting knowledge and attitude on the part of the listener in order to be discussed. And in my opinion, neither that thread, nor this one, are suitable for such discussion.
I have mistakenly assessed the time, place and circumstance for discussing this topic. I apologize.
When repeatedly asked to give support to your claim and don't do, telling me that I should investigate it on my own, that looks a lot like refusal. You have no idea what a person's "preexisting knowledge" is, nor what his or her "attitude" is. Basically, this reads as a dodge for not backing up, when repeatedly asked, the statements you made. If the Vaiṣṇava/Bhagavad Gita traditions are significantly different that the Buddha's critique of god notion does not address it, that is an argument, using the Gita, that could be easily made clear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:

he made an universal claim and not limited to Vajjians]
Quote the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

read for yourself the seven factors of non-decline---better copy paste it here...
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by manas »

binocular wrote: Can you conceive of "relying on oneself" while you also hold that this self that one is relying on has no substantial, no truly relevant existence, but is simply something changing, fleeting and subject to disappearing?
Yes, you can.

There is no contradiction when the Buddha tells us we must rely on ourselves alone, but when he also says that there isn't any self in the five khandhas.

I tried to put it into my own words, but as I'm not a Dhamma teacher, and this subject matter is very subtle and far too important to explain incorrectly, I've just posted a link. I sincerely hope you find it as illuminating as I still do (I reread it from time to time).

"The Not-Self Strategy" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

kind regards,
manas.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

Shaswata_Panja wrote:read for yourself the seven factors of non-decline---better copy paste it here...
Unacceptable. You have no problem cutting and pasting that "scholar's" stuff -- at length. In turn, you can find the relevant texts and quote them here giving the sutta citations as appropriate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by daverupa »

Sometimes I get the impression that the misunderstandings and refusals to learn which can be observed in these sorts of threads are rooted in treasured cultural/social histories. Akin to what was once standard United States education about e.g. the Mayflower and the first Pilgrims, it's a social myth far more than it is accurate history.

I think "Hindu Buddha" phenomena reflect something similar.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:What does your statement == '"Relying on oneself" does require a belief in some kind of relevant selfhood, though. And if this selfhood is to be relevant, then by implication, it has to be permanent' == have to do with the subject at hand?

It was in response to something you brought up -

T: Relying on oneself can be much more difficult that having the above god to whom we can turn.
B: "Relying on oneself" does require a belief in some kind of relevant selfhood, though. And if this selfhood is to be relevant, then by implication, it has to be permanent.
T: Has to be permanent? Based on what? Does this implicated permanent selfhhood change?
B: Can you conceive of "relying on oneself" while you also hold that this self that one is relying on has no substantial, no truly relevant existence, but is simply something changing, fleeting and subject to disappearing?


tiltbillings wrote:You answer my question, I'll be more than happy to answer yours.

AN 4.42: There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Locked