W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:That's what I said:
If you are using the term "spiritual materialism" as defined by Chogram Trungpa then presumably you don't understand it as your post doesn't make sense. If you are using a different definition then it's only serving to muddy the waters, particularly as you won't advise where you go the definition from or what the definition is.
binocular wrote: When this quest for the "truth" is accompanied by holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them, then that's not much of a quest for the truth. Or is it ...
I agree, nothing is sacrosanct, though a lot of things can be a waste of time. But then I've found the vast majority of western Buddhists (except a vocal minority of internet based ones I guess) exhibit the opposite of the behaviour you appear to be accusing them of.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by binocular »

Feathers wrote:I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it's a sign of ungratitude when people don't just adopt what they are told? Can't you be grateful for being introduced to the dhamma, and grateful for being taught it, but still examine things using your own judgement?
Problems emerge when people do their own thing (to which they are of course entitled), but nevertheless call it Buddhism, promulgate it in the name of Buddhism, and expect that others acknowledge it as Buddhism.

Aloka wrote:Yes I'd say that people Ive spoken to in the UK have a lot of gratitude for being taught the Dhamma. I don't speculate about Westerners in general.
Part of the problem here seems to be that we mean different things by "Western(er)."
Some mean the term geographically, referring to people from Europe and the US, and Australia, NZ.
Some mean the term culturally, referring to that characteristic brand of consumerist thinking and being.

I mean "Western(er)" primarily in the cultural sense. So some people who were born and live in Asia can well be Westerners by culture, when they incline themselves to the "American Way."
Your original comment I responded to was:
binocular wrote:Among some Westerners, there is also a sense of entitlement about the Dhamma - taking the Dhamma for granted, thinking that we're owed to get the Dhamma
And there is no problem with my comment, given the underlined word.

daverupa wrote:
binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
Will you please unpack this? Be precise.
Modern science being a prime example, in how it shuns the philosophy of science.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Aloka »

binocular wrote:And there is no problem with my comment, given the underlined word.
I asked you which westerners you were talking about and to be more specific ....and you avoided that and asked me these 2 questions instead.....
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to have a sense of deep gratitude for being taught the Dhamma?
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to just adopt whatever they are told in the name of the Dhamma?

.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Aloka »

binocular wrote:I mean "Western(er)" primarily in the cultural sense. So some people who were born and live in Asia can well be Westerners by culture, when they incline themselves to the "American Way."
So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?

.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by binocular »

Aloka wrote:I asked you which westerners you were talking about and to be more specific ....and you avoided that and asked me these 2 questions instead.....
And I clarified above that we appear to mean different things by the term "Western(er)".
I'm exploring a particular cultural type as such (and so appears to be the OP), you seem to think in geographical terms and names of particular people.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by binocular »

Aloka wrote:So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?
You've never heard of Asian Buddhists who don't believe in karma and rebirth?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Aloka »

binocular wrote:
Aloka wrote:So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?
You've never heard of Asian Buddhists who don't believe in karma and rebirth?
Please answer my question.

.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by daverupa »

binocular wrote:
daverupa wrote:
binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
Will you please unpack this? Be precise.
Modern science being a prime example, in how it shuns the philosophy of science.
But it doesn't. Only modern scientists could do that, and they offer a mixed response, not the unilateral shunning you describe. Your prime example is no example at all.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Feathers
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Feathers »

Um, I'm wondering how Asian Buddhists who don't believe in kamma, or who have the temerity to, y'know, be consumerists whatever that means, would feel about being labelled 'westerners'??? They can't think critically about their religion without somehow switching cultures? They can't enjoy shoe shopping and still consider themselves Thai? I don't think this is what you meant, but it seems the implications of this line of thought could be that Asian Buddhists can't take a critical approach to Buddhism without somehow being 'untrue' to their national/racial identity?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

Feathers wrote:Um, I'm wondering how Asian Buddhists who don't believe in kamma, or who have the temerity to, y'know, be consumerists whatever that means, would feel about being labelled 'westerners'??? They can't think critically about their religion without somehow switching cultures? They can't enjoy shoe shopping and still consider themselves Thai? I don't think this is what you meant, but it seems the implications of this line of thought could be that Asian Buddhists can't take a critical approach to Buddhism without somehow being 'untrue' to their national/racial identity?
This criticism, to which your are responding and to which many of us are trying to respond to here, of "western Buddhism" and all is remarkably amorphous and out of focus, to the point of being meaningless.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by mikenz66 »

Feathers wrote:Um, I'm wondering how Asian Buddhists who don't believe in kamma, or who have the temerity to, y'know, be consumerists whatever that means, would feel about being labelled 'westerners'??? They can't think critically about their religion without somehow switching cultures? They can't enjoy shoe shopping and still consider themselves Thai? I don't think this is what you meant, but it seems the implications of this line of thought could be that Asian Buddhists can't take a critical approach to Buddhism without somehow being 'untrue' to their national/racial identity?
It's the height of colonial arrogance. A view that ignores the thousands of years of interaction between Europe and Asia and the developments of civilisations an technology in both areas and assumes that Asia was stuck in the stone age for all that time...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Goofaholix »

binocular wrote:
Aloka wrote:So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?
You've never heard of Asian Buddhists who don't believe in karma and rebirth?
So to you Asians who don't believe in Kamma and rebirth are westerners? So i presume people outside of Asia who do believe in Kamma and rebirth are Asians?

I think you are digging yourself into a deeper hole of muddled thinking.

Education and modern values does in fact exist outside what most people would normally call the "west", while a high proportion of scientific and technological advances have come out of the west I think a lot of people would find the implications of your statement above arrogant.

I would say though I do know a lot of educated Thais, I find they are almost as skeptical as westerners about some aspects of Buddhism certainly more so than uneducated Thais, but they mostly still participate as fully in Buddhist practise because it is more about cultural identity than a religious belief system.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by Goofaholix »

mikenz66 wrote:It's the height of colonial arrogance.
I agree, that's exactly how it comes across, perhaps this is the sense of entitlement he's talking about.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
pulga
Posts: 1501
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

mikenz66 wrote: It's the height of colonial arrogance. A view that ignores the thousands of years of interaction between Europe and Asia and the developments of civilisations an technology in both areas and assumes that Asia was stuck in the stone age for all that time...
Perhaps it is better to distinguish between traditionalist and modernist approaches to the Dhamma. This is the point that Gombrich and Obeyesekere elaborate on in their studies when they develop the idea of Protestant Buddhism. It behoves us to understand what Protestant Buddhists are protesting against, and from where such a trend came. I contend -- at least when it comes to Sri Lanka -- that traditional Buddhism is just as legitimate as Protestant Buddhism, and it is a far cry from atheism which is one of the reasons why modernists have come to reject it, or at the very least -- for some who are culturally indebted to tradtionalism --to feel a twinge of shame in acquiescing to it.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: It's the height of colonial arrogance. A view that ignores the thousands of years of interaction between Europe and Asia and the developments of civilisations an technology in both areas and assumes that Asia was stuck in the stone age for all that time...
Perhaps it is better to distinguish between traditionalist and modernist approaches to the Dhamma. This is the point that Gombrich and Obeyesekere elaborate on in their studies when they develop the idea of Protestant Buddhism. It behoves us to understand what Protestant Buddhists are protesting against, and from where such a trend came. I contend -- at least when it comes to Sri Lanka -- that traditional Buddhism is just as legitimate as Protestant Buddhism, and it is a far cry from atheism which is one of the reasons why modernists have come to reject it, or at the very least -- for some who are culturally indebted to tradtionalism --to feel a twinge of shame in acquiescing to it.
"Protestant Buddhism" did not come to Sri Lanka, it arose there as a result of "Traditional Buddhism" near demise at the hands of Christian missionizing and oppresion under the Dutch and British rules.
it is a far cry from atheism which is one of the reasons why modernists have come to reject it, or at the very least
By this you mean what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Locked