I'd rather be reborn

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is following a set of rules/precepts/teachings not aversion against not-following said things?
Nope :)

Why do you eat?
Because thats what the khandas do ... and I have hot pizza :rofl:
Do you feel aversion towards starvation? Oh it's because you're not supposed to kill yourself, is it then not aversion towards breaking that rule/precept/teaching?
Whats your answer to why Buddhism teaches not giving into pleasure and pain, yet Buddha still ate?
It seems as though the "rule" against aversion is not as hard-and-fast as you portray it.
So aversion is a part of Buddhism?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Buddha does not want us to follow the double path-desire and indulgence on the one hand and fear and aversion on the other. Just be aware of pleasure, he teaches. Anger, fear, dissatisfaction are not the path of the yogi but the path of-worldly people. The tranquil person walks the Middle Path of right practice, leaving grasping on the left and fear and aversion on the right.

One who undertakes the path of practice must follow this Middle Way: "1 will not take interest in pleasure or pain. I will lay them down." But, of course, it is hard at first. It is as though we are being kicked on both sides. Like a cowbell or a pendulum, we are knocked back and forth.

When Buddha preached his first sermon, he discoursed on these two extremes because this is where attachment lies. The desire for happiness kicks from one side; suffering and dissatisfaction kick from the other. These two are always besieging us. But when you walk the Middle Path, you put them both down.

Don't you see? If you follow these extremes, you will simply strike out when you are angry and grab for what attracts you, without the slightest patience or forbearance. How long can you, go on being trapped in this way? Consider it: if you like something, you follow after it when liking arises, yet it is just drawing you on to seek suffering. This mind of desire is really clever. Where will it lead you next?

The Buddha teaches us to keep laying down the extremes. This is the path of right practice, the path leading out of birth and becoming. On this path, there is neither pleasure nor pain, neither good nor evil. Alas, the mass of humans filled with desiring just strive for pleasure and always bypass the middle, missing the Path of the Excellent One, the path of the seeker of truth. Attached to birth and becoming, happiness and suffering, good and evil, the one who does not travel this Middle Path cannot become a wise one, cannot find liberation. Our Path is straight, the path of tranquility and pure awareness, calmed of both elation and sorrow. If your heart is like this, you can stop asking other people for guidance.

You will see that when the heart / mind is unattached, it is abiding in its normal state. When it stirs from 'the normal because of various thoughts and feelings, the process of thought construction takes place, in which illusions are created. Learn to see through this process. When the mind has stirred from normal, it leads away from right practice to one of the extremes of indulgence or aversion, thereby creating more illusion, more thought construction. Good or bad only arises in your mind. If-you keep a watch on your mind, studying this one topic your whole life, I guarantee that you will never be bored.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... erstanding the Buddhas Teachings
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

Speech doesn't have to be abusive to be offensive, clearly.
Good job no one is feeling offended ;)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

A simple way to resolve a great swathe of this discussion would be if you declared what your intention was when you said I was "pathetic, weak" etc and how you feel it fits in with Right Speech?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

curiosity wrote:I see you've been reduced to facetiousness, good day.

Just trying to lighten the mood dude :)


Why so serious? :twisted:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6590
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Mkoll »

Hi curiosity,

This sutta might answer some of your questions indirectly.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by tiltbillings »

curiosity wrote: It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.
Why?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

curiosity wrote:After some reading it seems as though those who escape Samsara and reach Nirvana will see Dhamma (the truth).

Who is the one doing the seeing?

It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.

Any clarification?


Dhamma and nibbana are just the way it is at the moment

Right view is seeing how things rise and fall, and so are dukkha if clung to and not self

When you think of "who is seeing" you automatically fall into the trap of clinging to body, feeling, perception, thoughts or consciousness as "me"

If you see them as "not me", then you dont cling

There is no dukkha and there is nibbana


I think your trying to "think" your way into nibbana, which wont work
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by Ceisiwr »

If there is no soul, no "one," how does the cycle of rebirth work?
Saying there is no "soul" is clinging, just like saying there is one ...

The "cycle of rebirth" happens here and now, no need to wait for furture lives

If I cling to a partner, and they have sex with someone else, then "I" become a "hell being", filled with rage

If I enjoy cocaine, and I cant get it anymore because I have run out of money, then I am a hungry ghost ...
If one is nothing but an illusion, how is that that same "one" remains between bodies/births?
Pointless speculation

If there is nothing eternal, what is there to remain between births?
Pointless speculation
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
curiosity
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Post by curiosity »

.
Last edited by curiosity on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Locked