I'd rather be reborn

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:22 am

curiosity wrote:I see you've been reduced to facetiousness, good day.



Just trying to lighten the mood dude :)


Why so serious? :twisted:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:34 am

Hi curiosity,

This sutta might answer some of your questions indirectly.

:anjali:
Peace,
James
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:38 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:47 am

curiosity wrote:It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.
Why?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:48 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:49 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:50 am

curiosity wrote:After some reading it seems as though those who escape Samsara and reach Nirvana will see Dhamma (the truth).

Who is the one doing the seeing?

It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.

Any clarification?




Dhamma and nibbana are just the way it is at the moment

Right view is seeing how things rise and fall, and so are dukkha if clung to and not self

When you think of "who is seeing" you automatically fall into the trap of clinging to body, feeling, perception, thoughts or consciousness as "me"

If you see them as "not me", then you dont cling

There is no dukkha and there is nibbana


I think your trying to "think" your way into nibbana, which wont work
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:53 am

If there is no soul, no "one," how does the cycle of rebirth work?


Saying there is no "soul" is clinging, just like saying there is one ...

The "cycle of rebirth" happens here and now, no need to wait for furture lives

If I cling to a partner, and they have sex with someone else, then "I" become a "hell being", filled with rage

If I enjoy cocaine, and I cant get it anymore because I have run out of money, then I am a hungry ghost ...

If one is nothing but an illusion, how is that that same "one" remains between bodies/births?


Pointless speculation


If there is nothing eternal, what is there to remain between births?


Pointless speculation
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:58 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:06 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:07 am

curiosity wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
curiosity wrote:It seems as though reaching Nirvana eliminates "your" ability to "see" anything, and so this idea is contradictory in nature.
Why?


Because Nirvana entails the elimination of all feelings, thoughts, consciousness, etc.

How is it any different than absolute annihilation?

Reaching Nirvana eliminates "one," and without "one" is there is no one to see anything.
Says who?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:13 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:15 am

The fact remains that whether or not we cling to our particular body/thoughts, we are all experiencing different bodies/thoughts/etc.


Who?

Who/what is the one doing the experiencing (the "experiencer")?


Who?

Does Nirvana not entail the elimination of the experiencer?


Where does the idea of "experiencer (sic)" come from?

And if it does, and the "experiencer" is eliminated, then there is nothing to experience the Dhamma. Complete annihilation.


Annihilation of what, of who?

If you have to eliminate the experiencer to realize Dhamma, then there is no one experiencing/realizing the Dhamma.


No Buddhist would say that

As Ajahn Sumedho said, the personality doesnt become enlightened :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:16 am

How can there be "future lives" if there is no one?


I am a Buddhist and I don't subscribe to future lives, that's your overlay ;)

How is it that the same "non-existent one" gets transferred to another "non-existent one" if there is nothing to be transferred?


White noise :alien: :alien: :alien: :alien:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:25 am

clw_uk wrote:
How can there be "future lives" if there is no one?


I am a Buddhist and I don't subscribe to future lives, that's your overlay
Good to know.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:25 am

Therefore anyone who has reached Nirvana is essentially gone forever, never to experience anything again; and since you must reach Nirvana to realize Dhamma, well there is no one experiencing Dhamma because anyone who has reached Nirvana is eradicated.


What a tangled web you weave :(

You are just like Vaccha ...

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata — with the ending, fading away, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & obsessions with conceit — is, through lack of clinging/sustenance, released."

"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...both does & does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"...neither does nor does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears... does not reappear... both does & does not reappear... neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured."

"Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. What do you think, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'"

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"

"...yes..."

"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."

When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion — divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood — it would stand as pure heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood.

"Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or were to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:30 am

Notice your questions are the same as Vacchas

"But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?"

"'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear."

"'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply."

"...both does & does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."

"...neither does nor does not reappear."

"...doesn't apply."
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:31 am

curiosity wrote:
curiosity wrote:
Reaching Nirvana eliminates "one," and without "one" is there is no one to see anything.
Says who?


Isn't the whole idea that there is no eternal "one" in the first place?
You seem to be playing with words here, but it also seem not to have much background in the Buddha's teachings which leads you to these verbal mistakes from a Buddhist point of view. So, I would guess the says who is you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:37 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:42 am

How do you deny the existence of separate "experiencers"?


Who did that? Another straw man :coffee:

Are we all not experiencing different things?


Maybe, or maybe we are all plugged into the matrix ... scepticism is useful, to a degree ...

What do you think of scepticism out of interest?

How would we know?

I didn't write your posts, you didn't write mine, my questions are not popping into your head and vice versa.


How do you know that? Where did that thought come from?

So we are separate.


Who are you? Please show who you are?


I notice you don't actually answer questions posted to you :shrug:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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