Positive results from unwholesome speech

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Disciple » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:49 am

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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Disciple » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:53 am

The rant after Seattle defeated Denver to go to the Superbowl.

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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Mkoll » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:14 am

Disciple wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/24/news/companies/richard-sherman-rant/

This doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense in our popular culture of today if one takes a cynical-leaning view of it.

:anjali:
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby culaavuso » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:23 am

MN 136
MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.

MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:Thus, Ānanda, there is action that is ineffectual and apparently ineffectual. There is action that is ineffectual but apparently effectual. There is action that is both effectual and apparently effectual. There is action that is effectual but apparently ineffectual."


AN 4.77
AN 4.77: Acintita Sutta wrote:The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Schaublin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:50 am

Disciple wrote:The rant after Seattle defeated Denver to go to the Superbowl.




The Dunning–Kruger effect in its most extreme manifestation!

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Disciple » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:20 am

culaavuso, thanks for sharing those quotes. They've been a good refresher for my memory on how the Buddha viewed karma.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Disciple » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:23 am

Schaublin wrote:
Disciple wrote:The rant after Seattle defeated Denver to go to the Superbowl.




The Dunning–Kruger effect in its most extreme manifestation!

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.

I somewhat agree with this even though he is one heck of a football player for the position he plays in. He is not "the best" by any means.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Disciple » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:24 am

Mkoll wrote:
Disciple wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/24/news/companies/richard-sherman-rant/

This doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense in our popular culture of today if one takes a cynical-leaning view of it.

:anjali:

I tend to agree, popular culture in America is quite sick. Sad but true.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby binocular » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:00 am

Schaublin wrote:The Dunning–Kruger effect

Not necessarily.
Boastful claims of superirority could also be just for show, a deliberate act to try to psychologically destroy the opponent.
Many people like this kind of talk.


Disciple wrote:http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/24/news/companies/richard-sherman-rant/

This doesn't make any sense.

If one waits for or demands of others to explain their actions to in such a way that they will make sense to oneself - one will possibly wait a long time ...
Last edited by binocular on Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby binocular » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:05 am

culaavuso wrote:MN 136
MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.

MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:Thus, Ānanda, there is action that is ineffectual and apparently ineffectual. There is action that is ineffectual but apparently effectual. There is action that is both effectual and apparently effectual. There is action that is effectual but apparently ineffectual."


AN 4.77
AN 4.77: Acintita Sutta wrote:The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.


The question is, whether this can in any way be used to excuse and justify taking life, taking what is not given (stealing), engaging in illicit sex, lying, speaking divisively, speaking abusively, engaging in idle chatter; being covetous, malevolent, & holding wrong view,
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby Mkoll » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:14 pm

binocular wrote:
culaavuso wrote:MN 136
MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:But there is also the case where a certain person is one who takes life, takes what is not given (steals), engages in illicit sex, lies, speaks divisively, speaks abusively, engages in idle chatter; is covetous, malevolent, & holds wrong view, [yet] with the breakup of the body, after death, he reappears in a good destination, a heavenly world.

MN 136: Maha Kammavibhanga Sutta wrote:Thus, Ānanda, there is action that is ineffectual and apparently ineffectual. There is action that is ineffectual but apparently effectual. There is action that is both effectual and apparently effectual. There is action that is effectual but apparently ineffectual."


AN 4.77
AN 4.77: Acintita Sutta wrote:The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.


The question is, whether this can in any way be used to excuse and justify taking life, taking what is not given (stealing), engaging in illicit sex, lying, speaking divisively, speaking abusively, engaging in idle chatter; being covetous, malevolent, & holding wrong view,

I don't think so. Although the kammic results of evil actions may not manifest in the next life, the seeds have been sown and they will eventually manifest in further lives down the line.

When we justify and excuse those kinds of acts, we do so out of ignorance of the consequences.

:anjali:
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Re: Positive results from unwholesome speech

Postby khlawng » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:30 am

in this case
anger and wrong speech has resulted in rewards that are visible but not detrimental effects that are invisible
in the case of his opponent, the detrimental effect is distress and unhappiness
in the case of his opponent's fans, the detrimental effect is distress and unhappiness
distress and unhappiness increases the chances of one performing an action on another with an increase intention to harm
so mr sherman may have been rewarded with money at this stage
but who is to say that greater harm to his well being may not follow him on or off the pitch in the future?
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