The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Some topics tend to get heated and go off track in unwholesome ways quite quickly. The "hot topics" sub-forum is a place where such topics may be moved so that each post must be manually approved by moderator before it will become visible to members.
Goob
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Goob » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:16 pm

An article on and interview with the Burmese monk refered to as the 'Burmese Bin Laden' on political violence in Burma. Scary stuff.

http://www.vice.com/read/burmese-bin-la ... a-good-guy

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 7802
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby cooran » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:18 pm

Also, see this Petition started by Blackbird six months ago:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17879&p=253469

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4164
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Mkoll » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:37 pm

Some quotes from the article by the 'Burmese Bin Laden':

“I’m trying to educate the people not to [retaliate],” he says, “but these aggressive Muslims must be brought to justice.”

“The world believes the made-up stories of the Muslim people. The Muslims make other people offer bribes to make up a story, to fabricate the news,” he says. “Their sole intention is to occupy the Rakhine state forever. They hide behind the masks of human rights.”

As I walk away from Wirathu’s office, he calls out to me. He has one last thing he wants me to know. “When the story comes to an end,” he says, “the world will know who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.”


One of the four aspects of right speech is to refrain from saying things here that divide these people from those, or saying things there to divide those people from these, i.e refraining from slanderous speech. If that second quote isn't something that incites division, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

:rolleye:
Peace,
James

culaavuso
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby culaavuso » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:56 pm

Does anyone know what, if anything, has been done in line with the Vinaya in response to U Wirathu's public speeches? As I understand it from reading The Buddhist Monastic Code it seems that many of his statements which incite hatefulness in the population would be included under the Pacittiya rules such as Pc 2, Pc 3, Pc 54. There seems to be a procedure available for bhikkhus to admonish someone who has committed these offenses.

chownah
Posts: 3022
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby chownah » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:05 am

So far I have not seen transcripts of any of his talks so how can I possibly know that what he is saying is what people say he is saying?
chownah

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:42 am

I think monks should have nothing with politics (at least this is my opinion at the moment) but

“I’m trying to educate the people not to [retaliate],” he says, “but these aggressive Muslims must be brought to justice.”

“The world believes the made-up stories of the Muslim people. The Muslims make other people offer bribes to make up a story, to fabricate the news,” he says. “Their sole intention is to occupy the Rakhine state forever. They hide behind the masks of human rights.”

As I walk away from Wirathu’s office, he calls out to me. He has one last thing he wants me to know. “When the story comes to an end,” he says, “the world will know who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.”


but this is golden - golden - so true - painfully true its like i said it myself

but these aggressive Muslims must be brought to justice
- this is the problematic part a bit because here he takes a stand -

The main thing - he tells reality he tells truth in all his words here except from the bring to justice which might be seen as action all the rest is truth and reality - some times telling the truth can prevent bloodshed - if the muslims there will know they can do what they want and the world thinks there the good guys then they will do more and more which will lead to more violence towards them - which will make the paradox that whoever supports them will cause them more damage
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

Goob
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Goob » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:12 am

but this is golden - golden - so true - painfully true its like i said it myself


Can you elaborate on what you mean here exactly? If it means what I think it means it's almost too predictable..

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:20 am

no sorry i cant - i am not sure if its ok with TOS for me to say stuff like this myself - but if his words can be brought to this forum and be criticized - the minimum that i expect to be ok to do is to show support for at least this monk - even though i dont know if monks should have anything to do with politics - but i know that monks all the time deal in politics some of them are even highly respected monks - so if they can say there truth then this monk is allowed to say his truth - i understand its not ok to criticize other religons in this forum - but its also not ok to go and criticize those people who do

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 2713
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:13 am

I think it's important to disentangle fact from assumption here: where are the facts about the Muslim aggression and threat against Myanmar?
_/|\_

Goob
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Goob » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:53 am

purple planet wrote:no sorry i cant - i am not sure if its ok with TOS for me to say stuff like this myself - but if his words can be brought to this forum and be criticized - the minimum that i expect to be ok to do is to show support for at least this monk - even though i dont know if monks should have anything to do with politics - but i know that monks all the time deal in politics some of them are even highly respected monks - so if they can say there truth then this monk is allowed to say his truth - i understand its not ok to criticize other religons in this forum - but its also not ok to go and criticize those people who do


You can be as vague as you want but I think it's quite clear what your opinion on this is. Quite scary if you ask me, but also quite informative if one reads between the lines.

culaavuso
Posts: 1255
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby culaavuso » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:36 pm

From the vice article:
U Wirathu wrote:these aggressive Muslims must be brought to justice.


From the petition:
Petition wrote:For the sake of our Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, we call upon Tun Shin, attorney general of Myanmar to reign in this evil man, and bring him to justice for his crimes against our religion.


From the suttas:
AN 5.198
AN 5.198: Vaca Sutta wrote:"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will.


SN 35.88
SN 35.88: Punna Sutta wrote:"Lord, there is a country called Sunaparanta. I am going to live there."

"Punna, the Sunaparanta people are fierce. They are rough. If they insult and ridicule you, what will you think?"

"If they insult and ridicule me, I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with their hands.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."

"But if they hit you with their hands, what will you think?"

"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a clod.'..."

"But if they hit you with a clod...?"

"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a stick.'..."

"But if they hit you with a stick...?"

"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."

"But if they hit you with a knife...?"

"...I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."

"But if they take your life with a sharp knife...?"

"If they take my life with a sharp knife, I will think, 'There are disciples of the Blessed One who — horrified, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life — have sought for an assassin, but here I have met my assassin without searching for him.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."

"Good, Punna, very good. Possessing such calm and self-control you are fit to dwell among the Sunaparantans. Now it is time to do as you see fit."


MN 21
MN 21: Kakacupama Sutta wrote:"Monks, there are these five aspects of speech by which others may address you: timely or untimely, true or false, affectionate or harsh, beneficial or unbeneficial, with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. Others may address you in a timely way or an untimely way. They may address you with what is true or what is false. They may address you in an affectionate way or a harsh way. They may address you in a beneficial way or an unbeneficial way. They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.


MN 21: Kakacupama Sutta wrote:"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.


MN 117
MN 117: Maha-cattarisaka Sutta wrote:Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. This is one's right view. And what is wrong speech? Lying, divisive tale-bearing, abusive speech, & idle chatter. This is wrong speech.

"And what is right speech? Right speech, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions; there is right speech that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? Abstaining from lying, from divisive tale-bearing, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter. This is the right speech with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right speech that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the four forms of verbal misconduct in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right speech that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong speech & for entering right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4164
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: California, USA

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:37 am

Thanks for SN 35.88, culaavuso. That's only the second or third time I've read that sutta. It's similar to Ven. Sariputta's advice in AN 5.162 although each takes a different approach.

:anjali:
Peace,
James

User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 2145
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Gallifrey

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Modus.Ponens » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:27 pm

I think it's more important to first focus on the real core of the issue: did he commit a parajika?

If he did, he is no longer a monk, even though he wears the robes. If he didn't, calling him the burmese Bin Laden is an absurd exageration.

I don't usualy follow the conflict, so can someone clarify if he did commit a parajika?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby BlackBird » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:02 am

cooran wrote:Also, see this Petition started by Blackbird six months ago:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=253469

With metta,
Chris


Ugh. So this is the source of the dredging of my old somewhat reactionary views. Yes that yellow neck needs to be muffled before he causes more deaths and destruction of livelyhood of both Burmese ethnic minorities and similarly violent reprisals.

I still wish he would stop, as he is tarring our peaceful religion with a brush it doesn't deserve, but these days I would echo what Dan said in the thread, that any such counter movement to the evil man should be based upon us affirming to the world that Buddhism has nothing to do with the violent and destructive agenda of a man who is in all probability, trending towards a long stay in avici, rather than what I had said, which was probably based upon anger.

These days, I really feel like a Buddhists first job a should be to reach stream entry at the least (so they can help others too) first, and at least for me, such topics as these tend to lead to passion, something we all must subdue if we wish to progress.

Metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:19 am

ok just to clearify - because i was told im "vague" "back pedalling" and "bla bla blaing"

so :

1 . i dont support everything the monk says and does - so i was un-clear wrriten what i wrote - i support the words the monk said in the quote - and i do think that monks should stay out of politics

2 . yes i dont "like" islam and the fact that im from israel (which was suggested as if im hiding the fact - people are affected by where they live - people from the uk tend to be very anti-israel in there political issues - but i never would have tryed to imply to someone who lives in the uk that his views are not valid or biased because his from there because everyone is biased even if they dont know it ) - just makes me know him better - but i dont like islam - i like muslims i dont like the concept - and like the people

3 . i don think its ok to debate this issue in a forum which is censoring bad talking about religon - because its like a boxing match with one contestant with his hands tide

4 . i understand why its not ok to talk bad about other religons - but it dosnt seem fair to talk about this conflicts which clearly have religon at there core -

so again i understand the censoring (not fully agree with it - but i partly do) - it bothered me to see threads that talk against people who talk against islam while there is the censoring - i dont really know the situation fully in burma
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

Goob
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Goob » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:04 pm

Purple Planet: My friend, by saying "i support the words the monk said in the quote" and "like I said it myself" you are in fact saying that you think that muslim minority groups fabricate stories of abuse and discrimination in order to gain international support and they are in fact advocating a violent state take-over (never mind how completely impossible that would be).

You are most likely applying your own (extremely biased) perception of your own political situation to Burma (which is bad enough) and in fact condoning a potential genocide in a country to which you admitted to knowing absolutely nothing about. Have a think about that won't you..

Also, please tell me how all that relates to how you dislike "Islam" but "like muslims" and how you separate the two.

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:49 pm

Fine - if its still not clear - I dont know much about burma (but saying this i would appreciate if others would modest about their knowledge too - i did do some reading about the situation ) - so i dont support the monk - i did a bad decision of words - not against him either !

i support the quote of his - thats it - anything i said before i apologize for being unclear im not being unclear on-purpose - i meant to write i support his quote

islam = concept muslims = people who were burn to a world where this concept is and those "muslims" who try to oppose this concept and risk there lives to oppose it and change its meaning - have a much harder time doing so when people in the peaceful west give support to this concept just so they can seem "open minded" and tolerating people when those who get hurt by that are the muslims themselves

to change muslims you dont have to kill them - you dont even have to use propaganda ( which i support but you dont have too) the important thing is to say the truth about the concept and not support that concept just to feel morally superior

i believe we should say the truth about the concept of islam - i fully accpet the desicion not to bad mouth other religons in this forum this desicion has a good reason - but it does bother me that from here and there someone comments as if does who talk against islam are wrong - and i want to balance things out by saying that I PP am opposed to islam - without getting in to detail and that i think that people who attack those who criticize islam are doing something wrong

we are all biased i think western media is pro-islam (and this includes the lame israeli media too)

Goob
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby Goob » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:20 pm

islam = concept muslims = people who were burn to a world where this concept is and those "muslims" who try to oppose this concept and risk there lives to oppose it and change its meaning - have a much harder time doing so when people in the peaceful west give support to this concept just so they can seem "open minded" and tolerating people when those who get hurt by that are the muslims themselves

to change muslims you dont have to kill them - you dont even have to use propaganda ( which i support but you dont have too) the important thing is to say the truth about the concept and not support that concept just to feel morally superior


You strike me as a confused young man who has fully internalized the rhetoric and logic of a violent state nationalism. Maybe stop to think once in a while that maybe not all international media are "pro-islam" but that they might be accurately reporting some obvious human rights abuse by powerful militarized states. But then again I'm assuming you come from a fairly comfortable middle class background so why should you have to put yourself in the position of people who have nothing? Your words speak for themselves and I have nothing more to add in this discussion which has been depressing to say the least. In the words of Ice Cube: You'd better chickity check yo self before you wreck yo self

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:11 pm

As someone who used to be addicted to news ( ! used to! thanks to improvement in my practice ) and read at least one written newspaper a day - and spent at least 1 hour reading news websites - at least ! and seen how the media distorts the little detail - and hides the little detail - those who make the difference that why i know think the media is pro-islam - it has come to the point that whenever you hear 1% of the bad stuff about muslim violence you think its hate when actually its just 1%
for instance i think that the BBC and CNN and absurdly also Israel-news are much more pro-islam then al-jazira - because everyone is so used to hearing pro-islam side whenever something is reported against it even if its facts - everybody assumes that the media is balanced and that they hear the whole story - when they actually hear a pro-islam concept

i do admit that commenting here was probably mixed with ill-will - i still support the quote very strongly - but i guess i shouldn't intervene in something i dont know enough about and i would like others to do the same just in case im right and the media is distorting whatever information we get from burma and we will actually support violence instead of reducing it

i will read your posts if you would like to post again i will just not respond - cause im not the elegant writer and i probably am doing miss- service to my views - just know that i really am a confused young man in all aspects of life especially the dhamma - but as far as media and islam i think my views are built on years of seeing small details get distorted to one side

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Israel

Re: The Buddhist 'Burmese Bin Laden'

Postby purple planet » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:06 am

OK - i apologize - i guess i shouldnt put my thoughts on islam make me think i know whats happening in ALL of the world

and the fact that things work some way here in israel and in other middle eastern countrys dosnt mean it have to be that way in other places

and to support a quote i need to know the whole story - so i take all i said about supporting the quote and apologize for the bad feelings i made -

I have a feeling that the story isnt balanced - BUT i guess its not my job to balance things out in the price of a chance to be wrong


Return to “Open Dhamma Hot Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests