With wrong view or without wrong view?

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With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:08 am

This is a very important teaching of Buddha and not directly discussed in this forum.
================
Page 28:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
(Consciousness Rooted in Attachment)
1. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied
by pleasure, and connected with wrong view,
2. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by
pleasure, and connected with wrong view,
3. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied
by pleasure, and disconnected with wrong view,
4. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied by
pleasure, and disconnected with wrong view,
5. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied
Etc.
============================
The way I understand, this is a very important teaching and will answer most of difficult questions. Eg. Can I kill someone for self defence?
Evan Sotapanna does unwholesome kamma but disconnected with wrong view.
It appear however the weight of wholesome kamma or unwholesome kamma vary with the action done with wrong view or without wrong view.

=========================
This matter also discussed here.
AN 3.99: Lonaphala Sutta wrote:"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in the body, [2] undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind [i.e., painful feelings can invade the mind and stay there], undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment? There is the case where a certain individual is developed in the body,[3] developed in virtue, developed in mind [i.e., painful feelings cannot invade the mind and stay there], developed in discernment: unrestricted, large-hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

================================
What is your understanding about this topic?
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:28 am

Unwholesome kamma is not all equal. A sotapanna may perform unwholesome kamma, but only in regards to minor training rules and not the main precepts.

AN 10.92 says a stream entrant refrains from taking life (and follows the other five precepts)
AN 10.92: Vera Sutta wrote:Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

"Now, which five forms of fear & animosity are stilled?

"When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from taking life, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from taking life, that fear & animosity is thus stilled.
...
He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.


AN 3.87
AN 3.87 wrote:Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu becomes complete, observing the virtues and complete to a lesser degree in concentration and wisdom. He transgresses certain minor precepts and eventually emerges from them. What is the reason? Bhikkhus, saying it correctly it would happen. Of the main precepts dealing with the holy life and conducive to the holy life he is fixed and firm. He destroys the three bonds and reducing his greed, hate and delusion becomes one who returns to this world once more to make an end of unpleasantness.


AN 3.87 (Thanissaro Bhikkhu trans.) wrote:There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because I have not declared that to be a disqualification in these circumstances. But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, he is one of permanent virtue, one of steadfast virtue. Having undertaken them, he trains in reference to the training rules. With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.


In This Very Life: Liberation Teachings of the Buddha by U Pandita says:

U Pandita wrote:Morality is purity of conduct with respect to the five precepts. It is said that a stream entrant is incapable of deliberately breaking them, incapable of any wrong thoughts or actions leading to rebirth in states of woe.
...
The third and fourth properties, hiri and ottappa, we explained earlier. A stream entrant has these two aspects of conscience very strongly developed, and so will be incapable of performing bad deeds.
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:19 am

Sadhu,Sadhu,Sadhu

But I have read, that a person doing a wrong act with the knowledge that he is doing something wrong has less kamma effect.
Say, I know killing is bad but I killed my enemy with self defence.
My question is why Abhidamma went into all this trouble to have this 12 types of immoral consciousness.
:)
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:28 am

SarathW wrote:My question is why Abhidamma went into all this trouble to have this 12 types of immoral consciousness.


Consider the case of the minor training rules being violated (a wrong act) while mindful of the process and aware of the drawbacks (right view), such as enjoying the sensual pleasure of good tasting food while knowing that seeking sensual pleasures is unskillful. With this awareness while eating, the future results will be lessened. The craving that arises in the future as a result of the pleasant feeling will be diminished by the contemplation of the drawbacks associated with the act. The unskillful act can even serve as a basis for insight into why it's unskillful and how to train to avoid it in the future by observing the cause and effect involved in the mental states of unskillful behavior and its results as those situations occur.

Compare this with seeking sensual pleasure in good tasting food without any sense restraint and without any thought as to the unskillfulness of the act. This will lead to deeper feelings of pleasure from the taste. This creates a danger of physical pains from overeating and a danger of stronger cravings in the future as a result of the stronger feeling of pleasure and the inappropriate attention given to those feelings of pleasure while being unaware of the drawbacks.

In MN 13 it is recommended to fully understand the allure and the drawbacks of such experiences in order to cultivate the motivation and capability for escape.
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:49 am

Thanks
Any Sutta reference for " unprompted, accompanied
by pleasure" etc.?
:thinking:
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:55 am

SarathW wrote:Any Sutta reference for " unprompted, accompanied


It seems prompted vs unprompted is a matter of effort being present or not. Thus, in an unprompted state of mind there is no effort but in a prompted state of mind there is either Right Effort or Wrong Effort.

SN 45.8
SN 45.8: Magga-vibhanga Sutta wrote:And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.


It seems this "generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts" corresponds to the prompting.

Accompanied by pleasure/indifference/displeasure seems to be the three feelings of vedana from the standard formula of dependent origination.

SN 36.22
SN 36.22: Atthasata Sutta wrote:And which are the three feelings? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.


DN 15
DN 15: Maha-nidana Sutta wrote:"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. If there were no feeling at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., feeling born of contact at the eye, feeling born of contact at the ear, feeling born of contact at the nose, feeling born of contact at the tongue, feeling born of contact at the body, or feeling born of contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of feeling, from the cessation of feeling, would craving be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for craving, i.e., feeling.
...
"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. If there were no contact at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., contact at the eye, contact at the ear, contact at the nose, contact at the tongue, contact at the body, or contact at the intellect — in the utter absence of contact, from the cessation of contact, would feeling be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for feeling, i.e., contact.
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby Mkoll » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:11 am

SarathW wrote:\But I have read, that a person doing a wrong act with the knowledge that he is doing something wrong has less kamma effect.

I think so. The wiser and more advanced one is on the Path, the less the repurcussions of an improper act affect one. I infer this from this excerpt from AN 3.99.

"Suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"Yes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink."

"Now suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?"

"No, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink."

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
AN 3.99
Peace,
James
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby binocular » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:42 am

SarathW wrote:But I have read, that a person doing a wrong act with the knowledge that he is doing something wrong has less kamma effect.

In my experience, it is just the opposite.

culaavuso wrote:Consider the case of the minor training rules being violated (a wrong act) while mindful of the process and aware of the drawbacks (right view), such as enjoying the sensual pleasure of good tasting food while knowing that seeking sensual pleasures is unskillful. With this awareness while eating, the future results will be lessened.
The craving that arises in the future as a result of the pleasant feeling will be diminished by the contemplation of the drawbacks associated with the act. The unskillful act can even serve as a basis for insight into why it's unskillful and how to train to avoid it in the future by observing the cause and effect involved in the mental states of unskillful behavior and its results as those situations occur.

I can agree with the underlined part.

But generally, doing something I believe to be wrong will have worse negative consequences. At least in terms of feeling a lot of shame, guilt, and mistakes born out of these states.

Also, I've heard - although from some Hindus - that the same wrong action, if performed by a person higher up in the spiritual hierarchy, will have worse consequences than if performed by a lower person.
For example, if a monk steals food, that is worse than if an ordinary person would steal food.
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Re: With wrong view or without wrong view?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:02 am

SarathW wrote:But I have read, that a person doing a wrong act with the knowledge that he is doing something wrong has less kamma effect.

This does seem to be the usual interpretation. The logic being that someone doing something unskilful without realising it will not have any inclination to stop doing it and will repeat the action, and it will become a habit. Also, someone reluctantly doing an action known to be unskilful will generally strive to minimise the consequences.

I can't find an appropriate sutta quote, but see this from the Milindapañha:
The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?"

The elder replied: "Indeed, your majesty, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit."

"In that case, venerable Nagasena, would we doubly punish one who is our prince or king's chief minister who not knowing does evil?"

"What do you think, your majesty, who would get burned more, one who knowing picks up a hot iron ball, ablaze and glowing, or one who not knowing picks it up?"

"Indeed, venerable sir, he who not knowing picks it up would get burned more."

"Indeed, your majesty, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not knowing."

"You are clever, venerable Nagasena."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... iln-3-7-08

and here:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13926

:anjali:
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