"Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:50 am

This Dhammapada verse (22.1/306) is in the Udana sutta 4.8 I mentioned above:
http://www.metta.lk/english/Narada/22-N ... 0Vagga.htm
LIARS SUFFER

1. The speaker of untruth goes to a woeful state, and also he who, having done aught, says, "I did not". Both after death become equal, men of base actions in the other world. 306.

Story

In order to disparage the Buddha a woman was killed by some villains hired by a heretical sect and the corpse was concealed in a rubbish heap near the Buddha's Perfumed Chamber. Later, the murderers confessed their guilt implicating the heretics. Discoursing on the evil of false accusation, the Buddha uttered this verse.

:anjali:
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:12 am

Why haven't the abuses automatically ceased?

-- Your old karma/debt hasn't been fully paid yet?
-- You din't restrain yourself and created new karma by defending yourself? Is defending ourselves also a form of fighting back? Can we defend ourselves when facing unjust treatments/abuses? Can we seek worldly means of help such as legal assistance?
-- You got lost in the worldly affairs, and didn't investigate internally but instead sought externally, so you still need such "opportunities" to growth and make progress in the path?

Metta to all!
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby binocular » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:06 pm

alan wrote:Bhikku Pesala: I see that Sutta not just about cruelty, or the removal of defilements--a subject that has been expounded on at length elsewhere. It seems to be more about the attitude you take when confronted with the problems of the world. Maybe that's why there is a long and repetitive list of all the benefits of "effacement" in so many different situations. The PTS definition strikes me as harsh and unwise. Austere penance? No thanks.

In one sense, it is indeed austere penance to have goodwill (and compassion and sympathetic joy) for violent people (and other beings). Not countering violence and anger with violence and anger can feel very demeaning. Having goodwill in the face of violence and anger can feel like complete personal defeat.

For example: I am very much afraid of dogs, and have had many bad encounters with dogs, and their owners. As I would get badly riled up (I was useless for hours, shaking and trembling) after having been barked or charged at, I realized I had to do something about it. The very thought of having goodwill for aggressive dogs seemed utterly demeaning to me, and it felt like the most unjust, cruel penance that I should have goodwill for aggressive dogs, just so that I wouldn't be all riled up when they bark at me or worse.
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:55 am

I was just reading this sutta from the Majjhima the other day. Very good Sutta.
"And so, because this Teaching is so different from what Westerners are accustomed to, they will try to adapt the Teaching to their own framework. What they need to learn to do is not to adapt the Teaching to their own point of view but to adapt their own point of view to the Teaching. This is called saddhá, or faith, and it means giving oneself to the Teaching even if the Teaching is contrary to one’s own preconceived notions of the way things are."- Ven Bodhesako

Nanavira Thera's teachings - An existential approach to the Dhamma | Ven. Bodhesako's essay on anicca
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby floating_abu » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:17 am

Great thread, starter. Having been subject to baseless lies, accusation and hypocrisy recently, it is a good reminder.
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Hello friends,

Thanks for all your input and encouragement.

I'd like to share with you my recent practice on this topic. While maintaining the faith on the Buddha's teaching and trying to reflect upon and search inside to discover/remove my own defilements and practice metta, the abuses "cease" in a way that they don't disturb the peace of the heart anymore. Even though some others are even more cruel (probably as the result of the previous mistake of fighting back with anger, resentment, and greed for gain), the heart has become independent of the environment and most of the time remained peaceful (with liberative joy), without anger, hatred, or ill will.

I remember that the Buddha taught it's OK to defend ourselves when necessary, but it should be done without hate or other defilements (sorry I forgot in which sutta he taught so). We can defend ourselves with as little defilements as possible, and improve ourselves while responding to abuses, by taking these as opportunities for our Dhamma practice.

Hope it can be of help to some other friends in similar situation. May abuses also "cease" within your heart.

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby cooran » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:55 pm

Hello starter,

i'm not sure the Buddha gave a Sutta directly about self-defence. Here is a previous thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7537

With metta,
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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:35 pm

Hello Chris,

Thanks for your help. The thread seems to be about physical defense. I'm talking about defending against lies, false accusations, and unjust treatment.

I might have mixed up the reading of a translator's note with an actual sutta teaching. I somehow remember that the Buddha taught some bhikkhus certain strategy (by saying something to villagers) to defend against false accusations. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Metta to all!

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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:05 pm

Greetings!

When painful thoughts and feelings due to abuse or memory of abuse arise, it could be difficult to stop such thoughts and feelings. We should immediately turn our attention to the Dhamma, and recite or read the Buddha's teaching as summarized in the first post of this thread (so it's very helpful to be able to memorize them, which are the best medicine).

Ask: "What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?'' (SN 22.43)

Recognize: I'm having painful feelings/thoughts (and perceptions/volitions), but they are only feelings/thoughts (and perceptions/volitions); they are anicca, dukkha, and anatta -- they are not you, not yours; let them go.

After such hurtful feelings/thoughts stop, then recite/read the metta sutta (Sn 1.8), and radiate metta to ourselves, to the abusers, and to all.

Realize that we could turn the abuses we suffer to great progress in our Dhamma practice, by cultivating all the 10 paramis (and even beyond):

Dāna pāramī : generosity/forgiveness

Sīla pāramī : proper conduct

Nekkhamma pāramī: non-ill will/non-hatred/non-hostility, non-cruelty/non-harming

Paññā pāramī : insight of the five aggregates' anicca, dukkha, anatta

Viriya (also spelled vīriya) pāramī : diligent effort to avoid/stop the unwholesome, and arouse/develop the wholesome

Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance (& humility, contentment)

Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty (by acknowledging our own mistakes and wrong doings)
Adhiṭṭhāna (adhitthana) pāramī : determination (to stop the unwholesome and to develop the wholesome)

Mettā pāramī : loving-kindness

Upekkhā (also spelled upekhā) pāramī : equanimity, serenity

"Though touched by worldly circumstances,
Never his mind is wavering,
Sorrowless, stainless and secure:
This, the Highest Blessing."
(-- the Mangala sutta)

Writing such a post certainly helps as well. May we all overcome whatever pain, and enjoy the highest blessing. Metta to all!
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:36 pm

Anguttara Nikaya 5.161
Aghatapativinaya Sutta: How to Remove Grudges
translated from the Pali
by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi

"There are, O monks, five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen within him. What five?

If a grudge arises towards any person, then one should cultivate loving-kindness towards him ... or compassion ... or equanimity. In that way one can remove the grudge towards that person.

Or one should pay no attention to him and give no thought to him. In that way one can remove the grudge.

Or one may apply to that person the fact of ownership of kamma: "This person should be* the owner of his actions, the heir of his actions; his actions are the womb (from which he has sprung), his relations, and his protection. Whatever he does, good or bad, he will be heir to that."
[‘kammassakokamma ayamāyasmā kammadāyādo kammayoni kammabandhu kammapaṭisaraṇo"]

These are the five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen within him."
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.html# ... oveGrudges

* I changed "This worthy (BT: Venerable; BN: good) person" into "This person should be", since "worthy", "venerable", or "good" doesn't seem to fit here. In MN 69, "yo ayamāyasmā sabrahmacārīsu agāravo hoti appatisso’ti" is translated as "he should be respectful and not rebellious towards a fellow monk", so I think in AN 5.161 "ayamāyasmā" probably also means "should be" instead "Venerable".

Would the 5th method, the application of the fact of ownership of kamma contains a tiny little bit of ill wish by thinking about that person's reward of bad karma for his bad action?

Your input would be appreciated.
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby santa100 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:15 am

starter wrote:Would the 5th method, the application of the fact of ownership of kamma contains a tiny little bit of ill wish by thinking about that person's reward of bad karma for his bad action?

From the highlighted parts, no sign of ill will could be found..
AN 5.161 wrote:(Ven. Thanissaro):"When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should direct one's thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his actions: 'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.' Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued.

(Ven. Nanamoli):"Ownership of deeds in a person with whom you are annoyed can be concentrated upon thus: 'This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.'

(Ven. Bodhi):"One should apply the idea of the ownership of kamma to the person one resents, thus: ‘This venerable one is the owner of his kamma,
the heir of his kamma; he has kamma as his origin, kamma as his relative, kamma as his resort; he will be the heir of any kamma he does, good or bad.’
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Re: "Others are cruel, we shall not be cruel"

Postby starter » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:45 pm

Greetings!

Just to add a little more illustration of "his being the product of his actions":

“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate. I understood how beings pass on according to their actions thus: ‘These worthy beings who were ill conducted in body, speech, and mind, [color=#000080]revilers of noble ones (the noble disciples, or the wise in general?), wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell;[/color] but these worthy beings who were well conducted in body, speech, and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings pass on according to their actions." (MN 19)

Metta to all!
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