Which Suttas deal with the Ordination of Nuns?

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Which Suttas deal with the Ordination of Nuns?

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:05 am

In which Suttas the Buddha at first oppose the ordination of nuns and is cajoled again and again to change his mind by Ananda? what were Buddha's reasons at first in being reluctant to ordinate women? this phase has been dealt with in the film Tathagata Buddha (2008)....He gives the analogy of a fort when being filled up with women and children , it becomes vulnerable to attack and can be overrun by enemies...He says because of ordination of women his philosophy will stay on Jambu Dwipa (my guess since this is the term used elsewhere...it might mean Indian subcontinent (most likely), Greater South and Central Asia, Earth) for 500 years instead of 1000 years....if JambuDwipa means Indian subcontinent then I would say the Buddha's predictions were bang on as it was in the first century AD when there was the dawn of Mahayana with parallel councils


I want to know ---are all these true? Can anybody please provide any evidence?


I found a very casual verse without any reference in one site regarding ordination of women by the Buddha:

"The Buddha when his disciple Ananda first came to petition the case of women joining the Order...The Buddha seemed to have been very wary of women
: "Just as when the disease called crimson falls upon a field of sugarcane, that field will not last long, even so Ananda in that doctrine and
discipline in which women receive the going forth from a house to house-less life, the religious life will not last long"

Are the above quotations true?

Thanks in advance
Shaswata_Panja
 
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Re: Which Suttas deal with the Ordination of Nuns?

Postby culaavuso » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:25 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:He gives the analogy of a fort when being filled up with women and children , it becomes vulnerable to attack and can be overrun by enemies...He says because of ordination of women his philosophy will stay on Jambu Dwipa (my guess since this is the term used elsewhere...it might mean Indian subcontinent (most likely), Greater South and Central Asia, Earth) for 500 years instead of 1000 years....


It seems that you have AN 8.51 in mind. There seems to be no geographical reference, but there is a reference to the true teaching lasting for 500 years rather than 1000 years. This is probably worth considering in light of SN 16.13 and SN 20.7 that explain how the Dhamma disappears, which is not all at once but rather through people preferring to study and repeat misinterpretations. It's also worth noting that some recent researchers (such as Bhikkhu Sujato) doubt the authenticity of AN 8.51. The Buddha does not explicitly explain his reasons why he didn't provide bhikkhuni ordination upon the first request, nor does he explain the reasons why this would cause the true Dhamma to last a shorter period of time. It's interesting to note, however, that he accepts the request only after Ananda phrases the request in different terms.

AN 8.51 (alt. translation) (Pali)
AN 8.51: Gotami Sutta wrote:Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years.


SN 16.13
SN 16.13: Saddhamapatirupaka Sutta wrote:There is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world. Just as there is no disappearance of gold as long as a counterfeit of gold has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of gold when a counterfeit of gold has arisen in the world, in the same way there is no disappearance of the true Dhamma as long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world, but there is the disappearance of the true Dhamma when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has arisen in the world.
...
The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.


SN 20.7
SN 20.7: Ani Sutta wrote:Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.


Principles to be Respected by Bhikkhu Sujato
Bhikkhu Sujato wrote:The Mahāsaṅghika abbre­vi­ates the story of Mahāpajāpatī’s request, then pre­faces the detailed descrip­tion of the garud­ham­mas by hav­ing the Buddha declare that: ‘From this day for­ward, Mahāpa­jāpatī sits at the head of the bhikkhuni Sangha: thus it should be remembered.’ This again seems highly unusual, without pre­ced­ent that I am aware of in the bhikkhu Vinaya. Who was sit­ting at the head of the bhikkhuni Sangha before this? If Mahāpa­jāpatī was the first bhikkhuni​—​as the tra­di­tions assert, but which I do not believe​—​then it would be assumed she was always sit­ting at the head of the bhikkhunis.
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Re: Which Suttas deal with the Ordination of Nuns?

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:29 am

Thanks a thousand times...Now I know

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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