Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ben
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by Ben »

Hi Piotr,
piotr wrote:Hi, :smile:
Ben wrote:No vedana is a goal, and bliss is just another vedana.
Some feelings, when they are based on seclusion from passion-&-desire for objects of the five senses, may turn into a means to the goal – they are part of concentration practice. And the Buddha said that one of five qualities which leads to disappearance of the true Dhamma is a disrespect for the concentration (SN 16.13).
I think you know what I mean, which is, bliss or some other superfine vedana (sensation/feeling) should not be taken as the goal for path. All vedana are anicca, all vedanas are unsatisfactory and all vedanas are not-self. As the Buddha himself said: sabbe dhamma anatta. Rather than mistaking a vedana like bliss as Nibbana, one should utilise thee experience as an object of vipassana.
IMy comments were not indicative of disrespect for bhavana which would be completely counter to everything I hold dear.
Kind regards

Ben
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piotr
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by piotr »

Hi, :smile:
Ben wrote:I think you know what I mean, which is, bliss or some other superfine vedana (sensation/feeling) should not be taken as the goal for path. All vedana are anicca, all vedanas are unsatisfactory and all vedanas are not-self. As the Buddha himself said: sabbe dhamma anatta. Rather than mistaking a vedana like bliss as Nibbana, one should utilise thee experience as an object of vipassana.
Sure, this are important insights, but they stand almost at the end of the path. And they are not a goal either – they are a means. Take a look at SN 12.23 and Dhp 277-279, where this is clearly stated by the Buddha. And so is concentration, which makes good use out of certain kind of feelings. It's just unfair to compare this to a situation of a person who is addicted to medicines – the Buddha gave us much better similes.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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imagemarie
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by imagemarie »

Thanks piotr.

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Jechbi
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by Jechbi »

Hi piotr,

My perception is that this is a sitting practice-related thread, and therefore the most useful comments will be those that support and encourage such practice for those who choose to engage in it. If you agree, then it might be more helpful to find common points of understanding than to highlight perceived disagreement.

Toward that end, please notice that Ben was very careful to write that no vedana is "a goal." He did not say it is "the goal." With regard to other comments related to bliss and pill-taking, I don't read any of that as disparaging blissful states, if that's your concern. And I agree it's important to understand that those states also are anicca.

I think we also can agree that the Buddha was a master of similes, so any simile we give probably won't measure up to that standard. (Not to stir that pot of gold with a ten-foot pole ... ;) )

I think Ben is talking about vedana-nirodha as encapsulated in these words of the Buddha: "Sabbavedanasu vitaragovitarago, sabbam vedamaticca vedagu so" found amid Sabhiya's questions (here's a link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=o5zXeK ... q=&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
if someone has a better link, that would be great.)

Metta
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by rowyourboat »

So boredom has arisen- is reality not giving enough distraction? is the present moment not fun enough? it IS boring, it doesn't satisfy our desires, this reality. we go through life from one distraction to the next. yet with our breath, here we are faced with reality -- and yet we look for another distraction. we see it as a problem. yet ..wait for the shocker... this is not a problem- it is part of the solution- you are beginning to see dukka- unsatisfactoriness of phenomena. Our minds arent used to seeing it- it wants to run away from this insight- because that is what it is trained to do. Scary stuff. The path is right through that door that you dont want to go through. It takes a Buddha to find that door.

If you did- the first response will be nibbida- dinenchantment ('is that all there is???'). you keep on continuing to see this, despite this thought. then after some time you will get used to it-it gets easier- but with the full insight of the futility of phenomena- this is viraga- dispassion. If you continue to watch without stopping- you will get into nirodha- cessation-everything will look like they keep passing away- you will be focused on endings. if you continue even further- and with a bit of good kamma- you might even experience magga-phala (if you get past the non-self hurdle earlier on).

Just keep watching- watch the aversion as well- know that this is reality- accept it- watch it-let it be- but dont turn you gaze away- otherwise mara will strike again and you will be blinded once again.
With Metta

Karuna
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:Hi, :smile:
Ben wrote:I think you know what I mean, which is, bliss or some other superfine vedana (sensation/feeling) should not be taken as the goal for path. All vedana are anicca, all vedanas are unsatisfactory and all vedanas are not-self. As the Buddha himself said: sabbe dhamma anatta. Rather than mistaking a vedana like bliss as Nibbana, one should utilise thee experience as an object of vipassana.
Sure, this are important insights, but they stand almost at the end of the path. And they are not a goal either – they are a means. Take a look at SN 12.23 and Dhp 277-279, where this is clearly stated by the Buddha. And so is concentration, which makes good use out of certain kind of feelings. It's just unfair to compare this to a situation of a person who is addicted to medicines – the Buddha gave us much better similes.
piotr,

Please clarify what it that you are saying here. It seems that you are missing Ben's point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

Ben wrote:Hi Vardali
Boredom is quite possibly the manifestation of the hindrance of restlessness. All of us have to contend with restlessness at some point or other during our practice. In your situation, I would examine my practice and whether I was practicing as instructed. Boredom also indicates that you have dropped your awareness of the object of meditation and are reacting to, perhaps, the unpleasant vedanas (sensations) which is arousing slightly aversive feelings towards meditation.

If you are practicing anapanasati, then visualising bright flashing numbers as breath counters may in-fact be distracting your mind away from the breath-object.
For some inspiration, you might like to read Ledi Sayadaw's 'Manual of Respiration (Anapana-dipani): http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Anapa ... asati.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or the section on Anapana meditation in the Visuddhimagga and to follow the instructions precisely and maintain your attention on the object for longer and longer periods.
All the best with your practice.

Ben
Hi Ben,

That's a great link! I'm not going to change my practice any time soon (I have a lot on my plate already) but if I were looking for meditation support right now this would be so useful.

Best,
Drolma

:anjali:
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by Pannapetar »

I can relate to that. I think boredom arises as a consequence of craving for entertainment, intellectualising, or occupying the mind in any other way, especially as a result of the idea that "there are better things to do" than meditation. It may be worthwhile to set time apart for meditation, perhaps moving to a quiet location away from distractions. In the beginning, I often went to a nearby park for meditation. Now I am setting time apart in the early morning or in the evening when there is nothing else to do. The thing with achieving concentration... it just takes time. I have used the counting method with some success, but simple counting is too easy; it leaves too much room for the mind to wander. So I counted 0.5 on breathing in, 1 on breathing out, 1.5 on breathing in, 2 on breathing out, up to 5, then repeat up to 6, 7, 8, 9 until 10, then restart the sequence. While counting in this way I found myself visualising the numbers as shapes, as well as thinking "breathing-in" and "breathing-out" and simultaneously watching the (physical) breath. Occasionally, even a thread of independent thought sprang up and took its course in parallel. Obviously, the mind can parallel-process, and I even got better at it while using the counting technique. The parallel-processing can become tiring, however, and this leads to wanting to abandon meditation. I tackled this by dropping the counting after a while and just watching the breath, which is more peaceful and relaxing. Then I visualise my mind as a slab of white marble, clean and pristine. When thoughts come up, I perceive the thoughts as garbage falling on the white slab and I just gently wipe them away, like a cook wipes the countertop after chopping vegetables. This worked quite well for me, much better than the counting. I am not sure if this is an accepted Buddhist method, since I came up with it myself after much trial and error. Using this method I can get into a quiet state petty fast, even after a busy day with nagging customers and crying kids.

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by piotr »

Hi, :smile:
tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify what it that you are saying here. It seems that you are missing Ben's point.
I don't know what to clarify here. Maybe you can tell me where I miss the point.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:Hi, :smile:
tiltbillings wrote:Please clarify what it that you are saying here. It seems that you are missing Ben's point.
I don't know what to clarify here. Maybe you can tell me where I miss the point.
You seem to be critical of Ben's posting, but it is not clear why, if that is the case. Mostly, your posting is just a bit vague as to its point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by kannada »

Pannapetar wrote:I can relate to that. I think boredom arises as a consequence of craving for entertainment, intellectualising, or occupying the mind in any other way, especially as a result of the idea that "there are better things to do" than meditation. It may be worthwhile to set time apart for meditation, perhaps moving to a quiet location away from distractions. In the beginning, I often went to a nearby park for meditation. Now I am setting time apart in the early morning or in the evening when there is nothing else to do. The thing with achieving concentration... it just takes time. I have used the counting method with some success, but simple counting is too easy; it leaves too much room for the mind to wander. So I counted 0.5 on breathing in, 1 on breathing out, 1.5 on breathing in, 2 on breathing out, up to 5, then repeat up to 6, 7, 8, 9 until 10, then restart the sequence. While counting in this way I found myself visualising the numbers as shapes, as well as thinking "breathing-in" and "breathing-out" and simultaneously watching the (physical) breath. Occasionally, even a thread of independent thought sprang up and took its course in parallel. Obviously, the mind can parallel-process, and I even got better at it while using the counting technique. The parallel-processing can become tiring, however, and this leads to wanting to abandon meditation. I tackled this by dropping the counting after a while and just watching the breath, which is more peaceful and relaxing. Then I visualise my mind as a slab of white marble, clean and pristine. When thoughts come up, I perceive the thoughts as garbage falling on the white slab and I just gently wipe them away, like a cook wipes the countertop after chopping vegetables. This worked quite well for me, much better than the counting. I am not sure if this is an accepted Buddhist method, since I came up with it myself after much trial and error. Using this method I can get into a quiet state petty fast, even after a busy day with nagging customers and crying kids.

Cheers, Thomas
Hi Thomas,

Many years ago I also found that watching the breathing was too simple so I modified it to suit my needs. I needed something to keep my mind completely concentrated.

It went as follows...

1. Watch in and out breath, name each breath (inhalation + exhalation) as 1, 2, 3 etc - up to 10 and call the group 1 (1 sub-unit)

2. Repeat above and call this group '2' (2 sub-units)

3. Repeat above and name this group '3' (3 sub-units)

etc to 10 sub-units (10 x 10 breaths) 10 sub units then = 1 unit

Repeat above until 2 units are completed

Repeat above until 3 units are completed

etc up to 10 units - then finish

10 breaths = 1 sub unit, 10 sub units (100 breaths) = 1 unit, 10 units (10 times 100 breaths) = 1,000 breaths

Breath rate (on average) is between 6 to 10 seconds per breath. Shorter breaths are usually at the beginning of the sequence, longer ones towards the end.

Say at an average of 8 seconds for each breath the total time = 8,000 seconds or just over 2 hours for a whole session (one can modify lengh of practice for time available).

Practicing (or torturing yourself) this way ensures complete focus on the breath, if one gets lost in the count one MUST start again from the beginning, regardless of where you are in the sequence. It is not recommended to pursue practice in this way for too long, just until one gains complete focus - or goes completely mad. :D

Also, I found the best time to meditate was night time (less noise) a group of us would start around 9:00 pm and practice through the night, one hour and thirty minutes on with 30 minute breaks until around 6:00 am. We only did this on Friday nights, so we could 'recuperate' on the weekends.

Regards

k
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by appicchato »

kannada wrote:Practicing (or torturing yourself)...
Just for the sake of conversation...it sounds more like the latter to me...my experience, and what I've read, is that the concentrating, or focusing, on the breath is merely a centering point to calm, or slow down, the mind until such time until one moves on...chalking a cue stick comes to mind...it's done as a preparation, a preliminary, not an endeavor as an endgame in itself...I've tried to think of some benefit to this 'method' but unable so far...but that's just me...
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by kannada »

appicchato wrote:
kannada wrote:Practicing (or torturing yourself)...
Just for the sake of conversation...it sounds more like the latter to me...my experience, and what I've read, is that the concentrating, or focusing, on the breath is merely a centering point to calm, or slow down, the mind until such time until one moves on...chalking a cue stick comes to mind...it's done as a preparation, a preliminary, not an endeavor as an endgame in itself...I've tried to think of some benefit to this 'method' but unable so far...but that's just me...
Dear Appicchato,

Thank you for your comment. Back then I saw my above practice as a way of taming an unruly mind and it really does work. However it was only meant as a temporary aid in a time of my life where a firm hand was required. I would suggest that anyone who cannot quieten their mind any other way might give it a try but only as an interim measure, until they can safely return to more conventional means. Back then (1970) I wasn't practising anapanasati, I had not heard of Buddhist meditation methods until 1990. I was practising so-ham japa (ajapa-japa), a method somewhat similar to anapanasati, where both focus on the respiration without altering it (not pranayama). The outcome was similar to Samatha practise.

Alll the best

k
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by piotr »

Hi, :smile:
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to be critical of Ben's posting, but it is not clear why, if that is the case. Mostly, your posting is just a bit vague as to its point.
I thought that it's clear why I'm not comfortable with Genkaku and Ben's posting. But let me state it once more. In my opinion the bliss of concentration is not 'just another vedanā' as Ben says, but it's imporant part of practice. It's compared by the Buddha to food in a fortress which is 'for the delight, convenience, & comfort of those within' (AN 7.63). And contrary to normal feelings, it works as one of many means to the goal; it should be developed, and treated as a raft which will be abandoned at the other shore.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Bored with meditation - solution or acceptance?

Post by tiltbillings »

piotr wrote:Hi, :smile:
tiltbillings wrote:You seem to be critical of Ben's posting, but it is not clear why, if that is the case. Mostly, your posting is just a bit vague as to its point.
I thought that it's clear why I'm not comfortable with Genkaku and Ben's posting.
I am seeking clarification because it seems that your expression of discomfort seems to come close to suggesting that what Ben is saying is not consistent with the Dhamma. Are you saying that?
But let me state it once more. In my opinion the bliss of concentration is not 'just another vedanā' as Ben says, but it's imporant part of practice.
It depend upon which framework you are working in. You seem to be working within a jhana type practice and Ben is coming from a non-jhanic vpassana style of practice. I think we need to be careful to distinguish between the two when comment on what is being said.
And contrary to normal feelings, it works as one of many means to the goal; it should be developed, and treated as a raft which will be abandoned at the other shore.
Again, context is important here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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