Nāmarūpa - what exactly was the Buddha referring to?

[Jason]

Ven. Nyanamoli has one interesting passage in his Thinkers Notebook (somebody got a copy at hand?) in which he writes that the Visuddhimagga mistakenly attributes too many functions to vinnana that don't actually belong to it, and consequently does not have much to say about sanna (where these functions would properly belong).

Perhaps this is the page you're referring to (click on the pages to turn): http://waij.com/oldbooks/thinkersnotebookpages.html?125

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Chris,

One does get so tired of the constant all-encompassing (rather than targeted and fully explained) criticism of the Commentaries.

If you would like to see some more targeted and fully explained criticism of the Commentaries specifically in relation to nama-rupa (and other aspects if you keep reading further), the link which venerable Appicchato gave earlier in this topic is replete with them.

Metta,
Retro.

[gavesako]

Ven. Nyanamoli has one interesting passage in his Thinkers Notebook (somebody got a copy at hand?) in which he writes that the Visuddhimagga mistakenly attributes too many functions to vinnana that don't actually belong to it, and consequently does not have much to say about sanna (where these functions would properly belong).

Perhaps this is the page you're referring to (click on the pages to turn): http://waij.com/oldbooks/thinkersnotebookpages.html?125

Thanks Jason, that is exactly the passage I had in mind.

And this is the Samyutta Nikaya Sutta passage:

Taking up first the expression "having left home" (okam pahaya), Maha Kaccana treats the word "home," not as bearing the literal meaning of a place where people live, but as an elliptical reference to the "home of consciousness" (viññanassa oko). He explains that the "home of consciousness" is the other four aggregates — material form, feeling, perception, and volitional formations — which are here referred to as elements (dhatu); elsewhere these are described as the four "stations of consciousness" (viññana-thiti).19 If consciousness is bound by lust to these four elements, one is said to move about in a home. If one has abandoned all desire, lust, delight, and craving for these four homes of consciousness, one is said to "roam about homeless" (anokasari). It should be noted that this last term does not itself occur in the verse, but Maha Kaccana has introduced it into his exegesis as a description of one who has abandoned home.

19. The four viññanatthiti are mentioned at DN 33 (iii,228). See too SN 22:53, 54.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el405.html

[rowyourboat]

The point of vipassana/insight meditation is to see the harsh truths of what reality really is, so that the mind can let go deeply.

It is a process of deconstruction in it's initial phase (seeing nama rupa and cause and effect)- thereby breaking down the reference points and seeing the insubstantiality/emptiness of phenomena.

The first bit of this deconstruction is the 'delineation/dissection of nama and rupa' (nama rupa paricceda nana). Note -it is not simply knowing what nama rupa is, but a splitting of reality into these two components. The splitting allows us to see ..say a flower, not just as a flower but the rupa element (a combination of earth, air, fire water elements) and nama components (contact- the image of the flower-colours and shape, vedana-whether we see it as beautiful, sanna-knowing it is flower, knowing what type of flower, sankhara- further thinking about the flower- verbal thoughts or intentions). So the single object 'flower' (gana sanna) is dissected out into various bits and pieces and scattered.

Imagine a person who grows up watching tv all his life and hasnt moved his face away from it. He believes all the characters on screen are real. Then one day he is handed a magnifying glass and is asked to move in real close to the tv screen to see what he might find. To his surprise, shock and dismay he finds that the characters on screen are made up of various coloured dots.
person- puttajjana
believes all the characters are real- avijja
magnifying glass- samatha
move in close- vipassana
surprise, shock, dismay- the beginings of nibbida, dukkha
various coloured dots- nama rupa components

with metta

[rowyourboat]

does anyone know that sutta where a monk develops an evil view that consciousness is everlasting..and it is reported to the buddha?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings RYB,

Whether it's the one you're referring to, I'm not sure, but here's...

MN 38: Cuulatanhaasankhayasutta
http://www.vipassana.info/038-mahatanha ... tta-e1.htm

Metta,
Retro.

[rowyourboat]

Thanks Retro- no I found it (its an amazing sutta):

At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiïóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. At that time to a bhikkhu named Sàti the son of a fisherman this view had arisen: As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Many bhikkhus, heard that this evil view had arisen to a bhikkhu, named Sàti the son of a fisherman: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'. Then those bhikkhus approached, bhikkhu Sàti the son of a fisherman and asked: Friend, Sàti, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Then those bhikkhus, desirous of dissuading the bhikkhu Sàti from that evil view, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied with him: Sàti, do not say that, do not blame the Blessed One. It is not good to blame the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say this. The Blessed One has said in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Even when those bhikkhus, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his evil view tenaciously and would not give it up and said. 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ta-e1.html

[retrofuturist]

Greetings RYB,

That's the same sutta! (just labelled differently)

Metta,
Retro.

[rowyourboat]

Hi Retro- bit of a mix up - it is the maha.. sutta not the culla... sutta. But great sutta spotting!

Have you come to any conclusions about nama rupa?

Incidentally nama and rupa don't always go together. A thought can pop up in the mind door and be perceived by the mind.

Another sutta that I have been trying to find is one that defines nama and rupa as instances where knowing arises (nama) and 'hitting' or resistance (patigha)- rupa. This is very much line with the experience of profound vipassana. Most of the time we live in a thought (phassa, vedana, sanna, sankhara), and try to understand rupa by that experience which is not quite accurate. To experience real rupa one must go to the point were the (for example) ear and the sounds arises, giving rise to ear consciousness- these three in turn gives rise to phassa. This is possible to do when a yogi concentrates on the gap between the ending of one sense stimulus and the arising of another -when the sound stops and a visual object arises, for example.

A corpse may have an eye, and a visual object but as it does not have thought it does not experience. Hence we live in a thought.