Shouldn't lay advanced Buddhist practitioners be very successful ?
! i mean the few lay buddhist who are really advanced
cause when you practice you have less greed - you can be more focused ect ...
so they can waste less money for instance to buy stuff to make you "happy" so they should have more money -
they have less greed so they can control better their lust for tasty food so they can eat healthy
they can focus better so they can study new stuff very easily
make good use of time - not waste it on unnecessary habits that can come from stuff like aversion
ect ect ...
there are probably more than a few very good and advanced lay buddhists - who still have a job - i wonder why they dont get super successful ....
like warren buffet or bill gates - or why arnt there many top level athletes who are buddhists - cause i think that practicing the dhamma is improving you in a mundane way is it not ? than why we dont hear more of very - top-top level buddhists
(im trying to figure this to better understand dhamma - i personally might even ordain - so no need to say stuff along the lines of "what does it matter" or "we should not aspire for worldly gains" cause its me trying to understand the logic)
Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
How about shouldn't lay Buddhists be very humble and live simply?????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
Because their definition of being successful in life does not involve earning a lot of cash and acquiring socio-political influence in society.purple planet wrote:there are probably more than a few very good and advanced lay buddhists - who still have a job - i wonder why they dont get super successful ....
Instead they measure their success by how much they have developed their Pāramitās over a lifetime. All the money you earn, all the status you acquire gets left behind when you die. Everything one builds eventually deteriorates and dies. The kamma gained by living a Dhammic life is all you can take with you. So 'advanced lay buddhists' choose to focus on things that matter long-term, rather than expend great amount of energy in building fragile sand-castles.
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
Because their definition of being successful in life does not involve earning a lot of cash and acquiring socio-political influence in society.
Instead they measure their success by how much they have developed their Pāramitās over a lifetime. All the money you earn, all the status you acquire gets left behind when you die. Everything one builds eventually deteriorates and dies. The kamma gained by living a Dhammic life is all you can take with you. So 'advanced lay buddhists' choose to focus on things that matter long-term, rather than expend great amount of energy in building fragile sand-castles.
When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )
But ! i also had that thought you had - but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
Why do you equate earning more money as being 'successful'?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
purple planet wrote: When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )
- The amount of money one donates has nothing to do with developing the pāramitā of Dana. Otherwise only the richest people would attain enlightenment. It is more about developing kindness in the mind, removing the taint of selfishness and greed.
- Dana need not be of monetary kind. People donate their time and effort as dana. Arguably this is more powerful that merely transfering a huge amount of cash to an account. My teacher Goenkaji spoke very highly of this kind of donation.
Now you have jumped tracks. Who promoted Gates or Buffet to their positions? They are entrepreneurs, who did what was necessary to attain their wealth and status. And in the process not all of their actions have necessarily been wholesome.purple planet wrote:but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
People get promoted -or not- for all kinds of reasons. Surely one's kamma also plays a part. Presumably you have a lot of statistical data to come to conclusion that 'advanced lay buddhists' are -or are not- getting promoted at jobs over their colleagues? How many such people do you know and can name? Otherwise this is all speculative rumination.
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
Now you have jumped tracks. Who promoted Gates or Buffet to their positions? They are entrepreneurs, who did what was necessary to attain their wealth and status. And in the process not all of their actions have necessarily been wholesome.
People get promoted -or not- for all kinds of reasons. Surely one's kamma also plays a part. Presumably you have a lot of statistical data to come to conclusion that 'advanced lay buddhists' are -or are not- getting promoted at jobs over their colleagues? How many such people do you know and can name? Otherwise this is all speculative rumination..
ok i guess this is the answer to the question - external kamma (vipaka) has affect also
so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
It seems difficult to passionately devote oneself to any kind of materialistic pursuit when one has little worldly ambition and passion to begin with.purple planet wrote:When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )
Chances are that an avidly practicing Buddhist will have a characteristic deficit of worldly ambition and passion. For people who are into worldly ambition and passion (and people who try to run a successful company typically are), seeing that deficit in an employee can be off-putting, no matter how well the employee may otherwise do their job.But ! i also had that thought you had - but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
Also see: Buddhists are losers? http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=loser
edited for correcting a phrase
Last edited by binocular on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
When someone has lower levels of sloth and torpor he has energy to work well - (if only to help his boss or not make his boss frustrated or to prevent him from getting fired so he can feed his family )
he has less greed and aversion so less chances he will surf the internet while at work
he has more focus and less distracted so he would work better
he will less likely get into arguments
by less aversion and understanding annicha antta and dukkha he wont feel bad if his boss will ask him to work a few extra hours
once the mind is clear from hindrances one can find solutions to problems better
ect ect
all this things should come natural to him without any desire or effort so i dont think its a matter of ambition
he has less greed and aversion so less chances he will surf the internet while at work
he has more focus and less distracted so he would work better
he will less likely get into arguments
by less aversion and understanding annicha antta and dukkha he wont feel bad if his boss will ask him to work a few extra hours
once the mind is clear from hindrances one can find solutions to problems better
ect ect
all this things should come natural to him without any desire or effort so i dont think its a matter of ambition
Last edited by purple planet on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
How can anyone here possibly know the answer to that ?purple planet wrote:
so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
purple planet wrote:
so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?
How can anyone here possibly know the answer to that ?
its a question about the principles of it - about the logic in this being the case not about what are the statistics - or at least thats what i meant to ask ...
rephrase :
so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
As far as I understood, the hindrances, of which sloth and torpor are part, refer to hindrances in regard to the Dhamma, not in general.purple planet wrote:When someone has lower levels of sloth and torpor
A person can conceivably have a lot of sloth and torpor in regard to the Dhamma, but be very energetic in regard to worldly pursuits.
This is a topic I am personally very interested in.he has energy to work well - (if only to help his boss or not make his boss frustrated or to prevent him from getting fired so he can feed his family )
he has less greed and aversion so less chances he will surf the internet while at work
he has more focus and less distracted so he would work better
he will less likely get into arguments
by less aversion and understanding annicha antta and dukkha he wont feel bad if his boss will ask him to work a few extra hours
once the mind is clear from hindrances one can find solutions to problems better
ect ect
It seems that what you say above should be true.
I make an effort to beat the drudgery of daily life with dhammic skill. So far, to no avail. So far, skill cannot compete with passion, passion wins out easily.
Since the goal of Dhamma practice and the goal of efforting toward worldly gains are different, and to some extent mutually exclusive, I don't think the above holds.all this things should come natural to him without any desire or effort so i dont think its a matter of ambition
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
According to some yuppie versions of Buddhism - yes.purple planet wrote:its a question about the principles of it - about the logic in this being the case not about what are the statistics - or at least thats what i meant to ask ...
rephrase :
so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?
The question is inasmuch is yuppie Buddhism really Buddhism ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
when someone lowers his hindrances - he develops powers instead which if i understand correctly are there because of the lack of hindrances - not sure but this is my current understanding
so if someone dosnt get sleepy and has energy he gained throw practice when he will work he wont start to get tired just cause its not a "noble" task
so if someone dosnt get sleepy and has energy he gained throw practice when he will work he wont start to get tired just cause its not a "noble" task
if someone works to feed his family wont the will and effort to earn more money be wholsome and same : he also develops good-will and also works toward money so he can help others ?Since the goal of Dhamma practice and the goal of efforting toward worldly gains are different, and to some extent mutually exclusive, I don't think the above holds.
Can you explain - do you think worldly motivation (passion right?) is better to deal with daily life then dhamma skill - its very intersting you say this cause this was one of the main reasons i made this thread - to figure out the part of non-buddhist motivation methods - to help in "mundane" issues but also in practice -I make an effort to beat the drudgery of daily life with dhammic skill. So far, to no avail. So far, skill cannot compete with passion, passion wins out easily.
Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?
It depends. Greed for wealth can make one work very hard to get that wealth. An "advance lay Buddhist" probably would not work as hard to get that wealth because they would see that this wealth is unsatisfying and not worth pursuing all that much to begin with.purple planet wrote:
so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?