does the "practice" help you in worldly tasks?

[lyndon taylor]

David, I'm glad you have so much confidence in the moral integrity of the rich, I for one do not, but actually I was refering to the usual lack of integrity to the super rich, not just rich like maybe a doctor.

As to the moral integrity of Mr Obama, a man who's political views are well to the right of Richard Nixon, I think you're looking through rose coloured glasses. He's not Mother Theresa.......He's voted to cut government services, like food stamps, at the same time championing a big reduction in corporate tax rates, sounds like something a multimillionaire would do, not a man of the people.

[Doshin]

I think he's talking about making money at other people's expense, I don't know about Israel but that's almost the only way to make lots of money in America.

Only way? ...

How can one get more money, without somebody else end up with fewer money, as a consequence ?

_/\_

[purple planet]

but someone gains health in return for the money

[Doshin]

but someone gains health in return for the money

If they don't have(/pay) money they wouldn't get better "health". Is that an ideal/good situation ? Can/should a doctor refuse to help people in medical need, if he does not get any money ?

Yes our society depends on money to measure wealth, and monetary wealth is what we are supposed to strive for. Maybe there is a better way to measure things, to everybody's benefit ? (to answer the logically question: I am still contemplating)

If a company should choose between developing two types of medicine, one that makes a lot of money, and another that helps far more people; which one do you think gets chosen ? (I'm sure what most of the investors in the company would answer)

_/\_

[purple planet]

About people who can afford health its a different story -

ok in the example of israel
Here in israel there is government sponsored health - and the problems are everyone can get health care - just they might have a long wating time - and get poor quality care

and of course there are a few doctors who work also in their privet clinics also

but i tend to believe (not sure) that doctors in the public system get a small bonus for every one they take care of - or at least after a certain amount

so to the point - my example : if a doctor works hard and his focused - and dont waste time - and is honest and really takes care of people and not just try to accept and quickly send home (without good care) people to make a good bonus - and he works hard - he can also take care of people also gain more money - and everyone is happy the poor get cared without waiting a month before seeing a doctor for and he gains more money : win-win

i do see the point in what you and lyndon said - though its just that there are spesific cases which it is possible to make money not on others expense

[lyndon taylor]

Back to the OP, The point is, worldly success is usually not the product of morality and ethics, in fact often quite the opposite, advanced buddhist practice is in part a product of or involves morality and ethics, so the idea that advanced Buddhist practice should lead to more worldly success is not logical, they don't involve the same courses of action.

[culaavuso]

Regarding the compatibility of being wealthy, successful in business, and still a true follower of the Dhamma it can be useful to consider the example of Anathapindika. He attained stream-entry shortly after meeting the Buddha for the first time, yet continued to be involved in business and remained extremely wealthy. This success in business allowed him to purchase the Jetavana monastery as a gift to the Sangha and also allowed him to support a large population of monks through donation of alms and other requisites.

Good and bad actions are both possible from poor people as well as from wealthy people. It seems what is more useful for anyone, wealthy or poor or in between, is to not worry about applying unhelpful labels to others or judging their way of life but instead to focus on cultivating their own conditions for happiness in a beneficial and harmless way. The former leads to ill will, while the latter leads to release.

It's easy to see
the errors of others,
but hard to see
your own.
You winnow like chaff
the errors of others,
but conceal your own —
like a cheat, an unlucky throw.

If you focus on the errors of others,
constantly finding fault,
your effluents flourish.
You're far from their ending.

As a mother would risk her life
to protect her child, her only child,
even so should one cultivate a limitless heart
with regard to all beings.

It's also worth noting regarding worldly tasks that practicing the Dhamma when living in a home is harder than when living as a homeless mendicant.

it's not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell.
...
For a long time, lord, I have seen the drawbacks in sensuality, but the household life is confining with many duties, many things to be done.

However, in the Sigalovada Sutta, the Buddha directly praised wise and virtuous householders and said that riches mount up for them.

The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways
like to a bee that honey gathers,
riches mount up for him
like ant hill's rapid growth.

[m0rl0ck]

I think he's talking about making money at other people's expense, I don't know about Israel but that's almost the only way to make lots of money in America.

Only way? What did Barack Obama do to exploit others? He is a multimillionaire (mostly from book sales). Who did he step on along the way to the top? He was a community organizer and civil servant all his life. People voted for him and bought his books on their own free will. How about the doctors who donate their money and time to help others but are also well-off financially? Some physicians participate in doctors without borders. I knew a dentist who was well-off and dying of cancer. He still donated his time in Mexico to dentists without borders.

You may be right and i may just be a cynical old bastard, but i have been following american politics most of my adult life, to some depth or other, and i have a very hard time believing that one can reach that level of power in this country without being morally and ethically compromised. fwiw, i worked on the first obama campaign, have voted for him twice and would vote for him again if i could, but im under no illusions about what kind of character seeks power or what holding that power might do to one. Whats the saying? "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." On the planet earth, President of the United States is about as absolute as it gets.

[DNS]

Of course he is not perfect. Who is perfect? But he made lots of money, mostly from book sales and is in no way comparable to those who exploited and stepped on people on the way up, in the way of say, a hedge fund manager or ceo of a large multi-national corporation.

[culaavuso]

Another way the practice can help in worldly tasks is through the development of equanimity, sympathetic joy and an acceptance of what isn't actually known about the world, as opposed to trying to grasp at labels and hasty generalizations that can be contrary to the ability to succeed.

The Dhamma teaches understanding specific people in terms of specific actions, rather than assuming things about a person based on some sort of label or job title they may hold.

A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed.

It teaches that hasty conclusions about any person without having known them as an individual for a long time are unskillful.

It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.

Making assumptions about people without actually knowing their individual choices as a person leads to prejudicial thoughts and behavior, which ultimately closes possibilities for interacting with that person. Worldly success might involve dealing with someone in a position of power or someone with significant wealth, and assuming negative actions in that person's past without actually having direct knowledge of them does not benefit the ability to interact with them skillfully in the present. Perhaps an interaction with such a person could be a chance to demonstrate the value of the Dhamma while simultaneously improving worldly status if done skillfully.

It's also useful to remember that there's nothing wrong with worldly gain, it is passion that leads to negative results. Passion for or against the worldly dhammas is equally harmful.

Monks, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions. Which eight? Gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain. These are the eight worldly conditions that spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions.

The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality,
not the beautiful sensual pleasures
found in the world.
The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality.

The beauties remain as they are in the world,
while the wise, in this regard,
subdue their desire.

It's also useful to consider the Buddha's teachings on Mudita, sympathetic joy. It is for the welfare of a practitioner to be happy for the success of others and not make denigrating assumptions about others based on their success.

It is these three fires that give rise to jealousy, envy, covetousness, avarice, and greed. The craving for possessions, the craving for sensual pleasures, the begrudged success of others, the hatred that is begotten by the gains of others, the odious comparison of greater status compared with our humble circumstances, these are the "fires" that burn within us to our undoing.

It is now evident why mudita is such an important characteristic to be cultivated. When we can view the success of others with the same equanimity, and to the same extent, as we would extend metta and karuna — loving-kindness and compassion — to those who suffer grief and distress, sadness and tribulation, sorrow and mourning, then we are beginning to exercise mudita, and are in the process of eradicating greed and craving. Developed still further, we can reach the stage of sharing with others their joy of possession, their financial or social successes, their elevation to positions of civic or national importance, or their receipt of titles and honorifics. In such a manner mudita is counteractive to conceits of all kinds, and its growth and development checks craving's grip.

[DNS]

[binocular]

It's also useful to consider the Buddha's teachings on Mudita, sympathetic joy. It is for the welfare of a practitioner to be happy for the success of others and not make denigrating assumptions about others based on their success.

It is these three fires that give rise to jealousy, envy, covetousness, avarice, and greed. The craving for possessions, the craving for sensual pleasures, the begrudged success of others, the hatred that is begotten by the gains of others, the odious comparison of greater status compared with our humble circumstances, these are the "fires" that burn within us to our undoing.

It is now evident why mudita is such an important characteristic to be cultivated. When we can view the success of others with the same equanimity, and to the same extent, as we would extend metta and karuna — loving-kindness and compassion — to those who suffer grief and distress, sadness and tribulation, sorrow and mourning, then we are beginning to exercise mudita, and are in the process of eradicating greed and craving.

Developed still further, we can reach the stage of sharing with others their joy of possession, their financial or social successes, their elevation to positions of civic or national importance, or their receipt of titles and honorifics. In such a manner mudita is counteractive to conceits of all kinds, and its growth and development checks craving's grip.

When a junkie has a good trip - should we cultivate sympathetic joy for them? When someone has ammassed a fortune by fraud and looks happy - should we cultivate sympathetic joy for them?

[culaavuso]

When a junkie has a good trip - should we cultivate sympathetic joy for them?

Yes. Along with the other four brahmaviharas:
Good-will - We can guide our own actions in a way that will provide for the long term benefit and happiness of the junky (helping them get into rehab maybe)
Compassion - We can understand and appreciate the pain and suffering the junkie is causing for themselves through their poor choices
Sympathetic joy - We can appreciate whatever happiness the junky finds and be glad that they at least have that glimmer of happiness to experience
Equanimity - The junkie's actions are beyond our control, and they have the choice to do what they will. There's no point suffering over what can't be changed.

When someone has ammassed a fortune by fraud and looks happy - should we cultivate sympathetic joy for them?

Yes. Along with the other four brahmaviharas:
Good-will - We can guide our own actions in a way that will provide for the long term benefit and happiness of that person as well as any victims known
Compassion - We can understand and appreciate the pain and suffering that motivates the person's behavior and will ultimately be the result of it
Sympathetic joy - We can appreciate whatever happiness the person amassing a fortune finds and be glad that they are able to experience that happiness
Equanimity - The person's actions are beyond our control, and they have the choice to do what they will. There's no point suffering over what can't be changed.

These four — love, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity — are also known as the boundless states (appamañña), because, in their perfection and their true nature, they should not be narrowed by any limitation as to the range of beings towards whom they are extended. They should be non-exclusive and impartial, not bound by selective preferences or prejudices.

That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with appreciation (mudita), likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with appreciation — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. He discerns, 'Before, this mind of mine was limited & undeveloped. But now this mind of mine is immeasurable & well developed. And whatever action that was done in a measurable way does not remain there, does not linger there.'

[purple planet]

binocular wrote:When someone has ammassed a fortune by fraud and looks happy - should we cultivate sympathetic joy for them?



Yes. Along with the other four brahmaviharas:
Good-will - We can guide our own actions in a way that will provide for the long term benefit and happiness of that person as well as any victims known
Compassion - We can understand and appreciate the pain and suffering that motivates the person's behavior and will ultimately be the result of it
Sympathetic joy - We can appreciate whatever happiness the person amassing a fortune finds and be glad that they are able to experience that happiness
Equanimity - The person's actions are beyond our control, and they have the choice to do what they will. There's no point suffering over what can't be changed.

Compassion - We can understand and appreciate the pain and suffering that motivates the person's behavior and will ultimately be the result of it

i would love to be able to appreciate the pain and suffering of everyone but some people i really am not sure how - for instance in binocular example - he probably might have suffering because if fear of being caught - and suffering because he isnt able to get the money in a legal way - maybe he didnt have stuff when he was a kid ect ...

their are youths throwing firecrackers at the houses here - scaring the dogs and the people including my own dog - maybe its to personal so i cant see their suffering so well

this youths are very spoiled i know everybody's has problems in their lifes including the very rich - but this youths are popular rich healthy educated ect -it seems like they do it just for the extra "fun" - to be honest i can think of some examples why they "suffer" but would like to hear others ideas - would be extremely helpful to find ways to have compassion for them the same way i can have towards rapists and killers and theifs - its the people who do the "small stuff" without giving thought to the consequences that make me angry

[culaavuso]

it seems like they do it just for the extra "fun" - to be honest i can think of some examples why they "suffer"

If they feel a need for more "fun", then that feeling is an unpleasant one. They feel that their life without this extra fun is insufficient and inadequate, and this feeling is strong enough that they feel compelled to act out harmfully. If they were content and at peace with their circumstances, they would not behave in this way. So their suffering can be seen at least in the motivation for their unskillful behavior and perhaps also in the possibility of future remorse. Wishing they would find a way to truly be happy in life is actually a form of wishing they would stop with this behavior because if they were happy and content they wouldn't feel the need to act out in this way.

Feeling ill-will for them merely creates suffering while making it more difficult to find a workable solution. Feeling good-will for them creates the mind states that can possibly find a workable and lasting solution to the problem. Even if a solution is not found, at least in the meantime good-will feels better than ill-will so there is no unnecessary additional suffering created.