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what is "esoteric buddhism"? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:40 am

Greetings Tilt,

I think that question is twofold. Before you ask whether "everything the Buddha says [is] true" you need to ask whether "everything in the scriptures was spoken by the Buddha".

Then, what level of scriptures do we include in that set... ranging from suttas, which are commonly accepted to be quite reliable, versus Jataka Stories at the other end of the scale, which are the subject of more scepticism. Plus all the stuff inbetween.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:47 am


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Ben
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:57 am

Hi Tilt, everyone

For me, it raises the question of whether one has the confidence that the Buddha was a truth teller. If that is so, then, what was truth dressed in metaphor and what parts of his message were to be taken at face value? And I guess for me, it doesn't really matter. I figure that if I practice the Noble EIghtfold Path then a lot of these issues, such as, whether the Abhidhamma really was expounded to Devas in Tavatimsa, whether a naga protected the Buddha under the Bodhi tree from the elements, etc, & etc, become extraneous to the main game of eradicating my defilements and aspiring to become ariyan.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:09 am

Hi everyone,
As to the question - is everything the Buddha says true ? I think that the Buddha said on many occasions that one should not say something true if it would - in that situation - cause harm to someone. One must therefore deviate from the truth for a good reason. It seems that moral issues take precedence over truth. I presume the Buddha acted accordingly. That is why it is called right speech not true speech. I thought everyone here would know this already. I am very much enjoying this debate.
I hope no one is offended by anything. Kind regards, Vincent.

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:24 am


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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby appicchato » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:27 am


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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby appicchato » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:36 am


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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby appicchato » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:45 am


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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:53 am

Hi mawkish1983,
The most complete exposition of what statements the Buddha would or would not make is found in the Abhayarajakumara Sutta ( M. 58 ) but it is complicated . The essense of it is that whether or not a statement is made depends not just on its truth but also whether it is usefull and pleasant , there are eight combinations in total. I am looking for a simpler account or some cases where this is taught by example. I remember there is a sutta where the Buddha meets Vacchagotta and does not teach the no-self doctrine ( even though it is true ) because Vacchagottas mind is too disturbed on that occasion. But this is really an example of refraining from teaching the truth which is not quite what we need.
Kind regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:00 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby cooran » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:22 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:26 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:39 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby genkaku » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:42 pm

Smile just one smile




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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Jechbi » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:35 pm


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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:29 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:39 pm

Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Is anyone still following this thread ? Do you want to see this evidence ?
Several posters have made strong assertions of the kind : " The Buddha does not lie ". Are they just expressing their opinion, or are they telling me to shut up ? Several posters have suggested that I need to change my views . If I present this evidence are some people going to go bananas ?

Or can we have a calm rational enquiry here ? Please tell me what you think.
Regards, Vincent.

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:41 pm

Dear Vincent.

Nobody is telling you to shut up my friend, from what I've seen everyone is simply posting scriptual evidence that Buddhism is founded upon truth.

May you be well

:heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby genkaku » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:34 pm

Dear Vincent -- Gautama, if I am not mistaken, encouraged us all to investigate and find out. So, whether we work ourselves into a credulous dither about his "telling the truth" or "telling a lie," still, as those willing to follow a Buddhist path, we simply commit ourselves to finding out. It takes some courage, it takes some patience and it takes some doubt ... but that's what we do: Find out.

Just my two cents.
Smile just one smile




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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:35 pm



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