Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

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Sati1
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Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby Sati1 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:29 pm

Hello,

Apologies - I'm asking a second question for the day: Does anybody understand the correspondence between the 12 links of dependent origination (DO) and the 17 cittas of one sense-process (SP)? This is how I see it:

1. Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads us to create volitions during javana cittas
2. Formations (sankhara) in DO corresponds to the volition cetasika of a javana kammic citta in SP.
3. Consciousness (viññana) in DO corresponds to the resultant (vipaka) sense-consciousness citta of a later SP (either in this life or in a subsequent one)
4. Nama-Rupa in DO is the experience that results from the arising of the sense consciousness in SP
5. 6 Sense-Bases = ?
6. Contact in DO is the contact cetasika of the sense-consciousness in SP
7. Feeling is the feeling cetasika of the sense-consciousness in SP
8. Craving & 9. Clinging are the 7 javana kammic cittas and their volition cetasikas that follow the sense-consciousness in SP and that generate new kamma
10. Becoming is the new kamma that leads to suffering (11, 12) but also conditions a new Consciousness (3) for a new cycle of kammic ripening followed by generation of kamma.

Is this correct?

Thank you,
Sati1
London, UK

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)

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anatta1
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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby anatta1 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:51 pm

Please do remember and seek Nama and Rupa as anatta which need to understand as simple as zero.
non of them is exist....but all of SinKhara Dhamma arise and gone away itself whist you noticed that.

means it's only left of Knowing and Not knowing moments.

Sorry for my poor English.

nobleanatta@gmail.com
with metta
Welcome any questions and discussions for Abidhamma
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Sayargyi U Kyin Shwe's Vipassana Seeker
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Sati1
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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby Sati1 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:08 am

Dear Anatta,

Thank you for your response. I agree - each of these processes is nonself and must be regarded as such.

Best,
Sati1
London, UK

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)

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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby ponderingon » Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:24 pm

1. Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads us to create volitions during javana cittas


why did you say during javana cittas?
is javana cittas necessary for volitional formation to occur in?

it is more proper to look at DO this way: Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads to volitional formation; rather than to include the confusing idea such as "leads us to create". it is confusing because DO is apart from an individual self.

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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby randall » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:36 pm

ponderingon wrote:
1. Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads us to create volitions during javana cittas


why did you say during javana cittas?
is javana cittas necessary for volitional formation to occur in?

it is more proper to look at DO this way: Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads to volitional formation; rather than to include the confusing idea such as "leads us to create". it is confusing because DO is apart from an individual self.



Javanas are important because they are the only cittas in the process (vitthi) that are unfixed, which when looking at DO can be the link between Feeling and Craving (which would influence the second link between bhava and birth as well). We have no control over the fixed resultant cittas, they arise when the conditions are right and are the result of our past kamma, kamma in the understanding of its present connection with the mental factor cetena which arises not just by itself but with many other mental factors (sankhara), which in turn lead to shape and condition the experience being cognized at that moment.

it is more proper to look at DO this way: Ignorance (avijja) in DO is the ignorance that leads to volitional formation; rather than to include the confusing idea such as "leads us to create".


That depends... if the OP understands that javanas are unfixed then it might also be understood that it's at this 'unfixed point' in the process that the individual can practice "wise reflection" or "unwise reflection" (yoniso-manasikara) either creating new kamma or expiring the results of past kamma through the many techniques the Buddha taught us. For the "leads us to create" this can possibly be with the understanding of perversions/distortions (vipallasa) which again is due to our ignorance and asavas etc.

The four perversions/distortions are:
~ to regard what is impermanent as permanent
~ what is painful as pleasant
~ what is without self as self
~ what is impure/ugly as pure and beautiful

The above can definitely "create" wrong views to keep us cycling through samsara.
"Bhikkhus, possessing five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise. What five? It is spoken at the proper time; what is said is true; it is spoken gently; what is said is beneficial; it is spoken with a mind of loving-kindness. Possessing these five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise."
AN 5 198

ponderingon
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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby ponderingon » Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:43 am

We have no control over the fixed resultant cittas, they arise when the conditions are right and are the result of our past kamma, kamma in the understanding of its present connection with the mental factor cetena which arises not just by itself but with many other mental factors (sankhara), which in turn lead to shape and condition the experience being cognized at that moment.


Here you have explained what fixed is

Javanas are important because they are the only cittas in the process (vitthi) that are unfixed, which when looking at DO can be the link between Feeling and Craving (which would influence the second link between bhava and birth as well).


Can you explained unfixed from this message

It would be helpful if you can take some time and give some answers on the four perversions/distortions.

~ to regard what is impermanent as permanent

How can you tell what is permanent?

~ what is painful as pleasant

what is painful and why is it called pleasant?

~ what is without self as self

Is there an ultimate self and a conventional self?

~ what is impure/ugly as pure and beautiful

how do you know if something is pure?

randall
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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby randall » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:45 am

ponderingon wrote:
Javanas are important because they are the only cittas in the process (vitthi) that are unfixed, which when looking at DO can be the link between Feeling and Craving (which would influence the second link between bhava and birth as well).


Can you explained unfixed from this message



Up until the javana stage the cittas in the process are rootless resultant and functional cittas accompanied with neutral feeling. They're fixed cittas doing their job/function. The seven javanas in the process just after these are said to be unfixed as they "fully experience the object", its during this function of fully experiencing the object that we can observe/react etc. with wise reflection or unwise reflection towards an object. It's our perversions due to ignorance that blind us from seeing the dangers in wrong views etc.

The suttas posted above are very good, something else worth a read is the commentary to MN02
"Bhikkhus, possessing five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise. What five? It is spoken at the proper time; what is said is true; it is spoken gently; what is said is beneficial; it is spoken with a mind of loving-kindness. Possessing these five factors, speech is well spoken, not badly spoken; it is blameless and beyond reproach by the wise."
AN 5 198

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Re: Dependent origination and sense-process correspondence

Postby SarathW » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 am

Information:

A complete thought process, occurring through the physical sense doors, is made up of seventeen thought moments (citta kha.na). These are:
1.A bhava"nga that flows by in a passive state when one of the five physical sense organs comes in contact with its object (atiita bhava"nga).
2.A bhava"nga that vibrates for one thought moment (bhava"nga calana).
3.A bhava"nga that cuts off the flow (bhava"nga upaccheda).
4.A citta that turns towards the object through the sense door that has been stimulated (pañcadvaara-vajjana).
5.The appropriate sense consciousness; in the case of the eye, for example, eye consciousness (cakkhu viññaa.na).
6.Next a thought moment — the sampa.ticchana citta — which has the function of receiving the object.
7.When the object has been received another thought moment, called the santiirana citta, arises, performing the function of investigating the object.
8.The act (kamma) itself, especially if it was a weighty one.
9 to 15.The object having been determined, the most important stage from an ethical standpoint follows. This stage, called javana, consists of seven consecutive thought moments all having an identical nature. It is at this stage that good or evil is done, depending on whether the cittas have wholesome or unwholesome roots. Therefore, these javana thought moments have roots and also produce new kamma.16 and 17.Following the seventh javana the registering stage occurs, composed of two thought moments called tadaalambane. When the second registering citta has perished, the bhava"nga follows, flowing on until interrupted by another thought process.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html


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