Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

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Strive4Karuna
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Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Strive4Karuna »

Does unwholesome thinking generate bad merit? What if I have unwholesome thoughts, but good actions?



or should I just let it go and stop thinking about kamma and a possible next life and focus on now.
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waterchan
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by waterchan »

Strive4Karuna wrote:Does unwholesome thinking generate bad merit?
Oh, most definitely. Any act of body, speech or mind accompanied by ill will, sensual/material desire or ignorance of the Dhamma generates akusala kamma. In fact, unwholesome thinking is the main avenue by which solid preceptors generate bad kamma. There's a bazillion sutta references to that, so I'll let you do the searching, or let someone else post them. :D
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
culaavuso
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by culaavuso »

Strive4Karuna wrote:What if I have unwholesome thoughts, but good actions?
The suttas speak of mixed kamma that is both dark and bright. It could be viewed as two separate actions, one bodily and one mental. Each action will yield its results.
Strive4Karuna wrote: or should I just let it go and stop thinking about kamma and a possible next life and focus on now.
This seems to be a false dichotomy. What you do now will influence the conditions that you experience in three seconds, three hours, three years, or three lifetimes. The only way to take care of the future is by taking care of what's being done right now to shape it. Until the cessation of kamma is achieved, every 'now' results in new kamma that will influence the future. Thinking about kamma is itself an intentional action happening 'now' which can generate kamma, so it may be more useful to ask whether the kamma being generated right now is bright or dark.
AN 6.63: Nibbedhika Sutta wrote: Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.
SN 35.145: Kamma Sutta wrote: Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.

And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.

And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.
AN 4.235: Ariyamagga Sutta wrote: Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.
Dhp 9 (121-122) wrote: Don't underestimate evil
('It won't amount to much').
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With evil — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the fool fills himself full.

Don't underestimate merit
('It won't amount to much').
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With merit — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the enlightened one fills himself full.
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Aloka
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Aloka »

Strive4Karuna wrote:Does unwholesome thinking generate bad merit? What if I have unwholesome thoughts, but good actions?
or should I just let it go and stop thinking about kamma and a possible next life and focus on now.
I recommend listening to this talk about kamma given by Ajahn Amaro called "Who is Pulling the Strings" and dated 23rd September 2012 at the link.

http://www.amaravati.org/teachings/audi ... ation/2083

Kind regards,

Aloka
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Cittasanto
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Strive4Karuna
Strive4Karuna wrote:Does unwholesome thinking generate bad merit? What if I have unwholesome thoughts, but good actions?



or should I just let it go and stop thinking about kamma and a possible next life and focus on now.
Thoughts are a mental action that will given time form the foundation for consciousness
Cetanā sutta: [Developing] Intentions - SN 12.38 wrote:"Mendicants, what one perceives, what one thinks over, and what one fills the senses with: this supports the continuation of consciousness.
When one recollects the sense object, consciousness is established, therefore, wherever consciousness is established is where it increases for the future, leading to more becoming later on.
When there is more becoming later on, one should recollect there will also be birth, old age & death, as-well as grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, & despair, and so there is the origination of this whole mass of suffering.”
If our thinking is based in unskillful areas then we are eventually going to develop intentions based on the mindstate that we have developed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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seeker242
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by seeker242 »

Strive4Karuna wrote: or should I just let it go and stop thinking about kamma and a possible next life and focus on now.
Sounds like a good plan as long as you try to think and practice skillful things, right now. As right now is what really matters. :smile:
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cooran
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by cooran »

Is all thinking "intentional"? Some thinking seems uncontrolled.

What about when you are trying to meditate and, after a little or a long while, you become aware that your mind has been rambling on about imaginary things.

Do the 'involuntary' thoughts or fictional stories create Kamma?

Any sutta quotes supporting this?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by m0rl0ck »

The stories you tell yourself tend to come true. Its best to think as little as one can manage :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Aloka
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Aloka »

cooran wrote:What about when you are trying to meditate and, after a little or a long while, you become aware that your mind has been rambling on about imaginary things.

Do the 'involuntary' thoughts or fictional stories create Kamma?
If they're just passing papanca and intention is absent, then I don't see how they can create any kamma.

:anjali:
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waterchan
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by waterchan »

cooran wrote: Do the 'involuntary' thoughts or fictional stories create Kamma?

Any sutta quotes supporting this?
Contact is the means by which kamma comes into play. In dependent origination, the cause of contact can be traced back to mental and physical activity (nama-rupa) which need not be strictly voluntary.

So mental activity, intentional or unintentional, creates contact, which creates kamma. The Buddhist idea of "intention" includes very fine subconscious tendencies as well as the grosser forms that we usually understand by the English word "intention".

The only type of activity or papancha that would create neutral kamma is that which is in accordance with the Eightfold Path:
AN 4.235: Ariyamagga Sutta

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Cittasanto
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Cittasanto »

Aloka wrote:
cooran wrote:What about when you are trying to meditate and, after a little or a long while, you become aware that your mind has been rambling on about imaginary things.

Do the 'involuntary' thoughts or fictional stories create Kamma?
If they're just passing papanca and intention is absent, then I don't see how they can create any kamma.

:anjali:
Appropriate Attention.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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waterchan
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by waterchan »

Cittasanto wrote: Appropriate Attention.
Then the devata inhabiting the forest thicket, feeling sympathy for the monk, desiring his benefit, desiring to bring him to his senses, approached him and addressed him with this verse:

From inappropriate attention
you're being chewed by your thoughts.
Relinquishing what's inappropriate,
contemplate
appropriately.
How come devas never approach me when I'm having unskillful thoughts... I wouldn't mind being patronized by one...
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Aloka
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Aloka »

waterchan wrote:So mental activity, intentional or unintentional, creates contact, which creates kamma.
If my thoughts are fantasising briefly about colourful butterflies on flowers, while I'm sitting on a bus, - how does that create contact, which creates kamma?
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waterchan
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by waterchan »

Aloka wrote: If my thoughts are fantasising briefly about colourful butterflies on flowers, while I'm sitting on a bus, - how does that create contact, which creates kamma?
Three conditions are necessary and sufficient for contact: one of your six senses, an object that can be perceived by that sense, and the consciousness of that sense (viññāṇa).
SN 12.44: Loka Sutta:

Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact.
If your mind is fantasizing about a butterfly, you have your mind, you have the butterfly in your mind, and your mind is obviously conscious of the butterfly.

The three factors are in place: BOOM — contact.

Contact is present: BOOM — kamma!
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Aloka
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Re: Does unwholesome thinking generate bad kamma?

Post by Aloka »

waterchan wrote:The three factors are in place... BOOM — contact.

Contact is present... BOOM — kamma
That doesn't answer my question. contact with what ? Kamma from what ?.....an imaginary butterfly ?
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