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what is "esoteric buddhism"? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:56 pm

Hi everyone,
Here is an outline of the key section of M. 58 taken from :

Author : K. N. Jayatilleke.
Title : Early Buddhist Theory Of Knowledge.
Publisher : Motilal Banarsidass - Delhi Original 1963 Reprinted 1980.

Jayatilleke gives a good overview of the Abhayarajakumara Sutta - in truth table form as follows :

1. True Useful Pleasant YES
2. True Useful Unpleasant YES
3. True Useless Pleasant NO
4. True Useless Unpleasant NO
5. False Useful Pleasant
6. False Useful Unpleasant
7. False Useless Pleasant NO
8. False Useless Unpleasant NO

The true or false in the first collum is based on a correspondence theory of truth ie conforming to what is factually the case.
I would prefer that the Pali terms translated here as Useful / Useless in collum 2 be replaced with Beneficial / Detrimental.
The last collum shows whether the Buddha would make such a statement.

Jayatilleke gives his tranlation of the relevant passage and says: "We may observe that possibilities 5 and 6 are ommited".

Conclusion : The Buddha does not want to say whether or not he would make false - beneficial statements. Why is this ?

Regards, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:28 pm


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Jechbi
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:28 pm


Mawkish1983
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:40 pm


vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:10 pm

Hi everyone,

I think that some of the problems that people are having in understanding what I am saying here are due to the following :

Many people here in the West seem to think that a lie is always wrong. But is it ? Most of the lies that we see are wrong but it does not follow that all lies are wrong.
If I lie to you in order to steal money from you then I have done harm to you by means of the lie. The act of the lie is wrong because of its consequence - the harm done to you. It does not follow that every lie is - in itself - wrong.
A lie which benefits someone else thus becomes a good lie. Do we need a new category in the West - the good lie ?

Does anyone here have any observations about how these things are understood in other cultures and times ?
Regards, Vincent.

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Jechbi
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Jechbi » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:40 pm

I think that would fall under the category of the Mahayana understanding of upaya, at least as it sometimes is presented.

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genkaku
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby genkaku » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:43 pm

As a small footnote, the Vedanta Hindu (does it matter if it was the convenience store clerk?) Swami Vivekananda once observed, "The mind (he meant intellect) is a good servant and a poor master." Any practicing Buddhist can attest to the usefulness of this remark.

Logic and parsing and thinking are wonderful tools. They persuade and guide. But it is well to remember that what persuades and guides and encourages is not the same as the actualized truth of matters.

So, for example, we do our best not to lie. Then, when we catch ourselves in our lies, we do our best either to correct ourselves or not repeat our mistakes. We can parse and dissect "lies" and "the truth" until the cows come home ... but still the question remains, of what truth is such argumentation an example; who is the master; and how can we expect to find a truth that is untroubled by thinkers large and small?

The Eightfold Path encourages "right (complete) meditation" among other things. I vote for that.

I may be lying, but as the old saying goes, "It takes a thief to catch a thief."
Smile just one smile




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Ben
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:38 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:36 pm

Hi Ben,
Thank you for posting the text of the passage from M.58. I was hoping that someone would post it . I am new to this forum stuff and have not yet figured out how to do clever things like that. Kind regards, Vincent.

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Ben
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:52 pm

No problem Vincent.
You can use the controls at the top of your text editing window. The 'quote button was the one that i used to enclose the cannonical extracts in a box. Likewise the size (box that says 'normal', font colour, and bold.

I'd also like to see whether you have additional support for your contention that the Buddha did not tell the truth. And if not, whether you could quote the section from Jayatilleke so that we can discuss it.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:22 pm

Hi Ben,
Thanks again but I must be very dim could you explain a bit more ?
a) Does this involve the "clipboard" on ones own computer ?
b) Where was the cannonical text , on this site , on another site , on your own system ?
c) Is there an instruction sheet somewhere on this site. Regards , Vincent.

Edit: found the faq - must be blind.

vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby vinasp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:08 pm

Hi everyone,
Here is another angle from which to explore the question : Is everything the Buddha said true ?
If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings. Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
Would you like to see a few , I have a nice one which I could point out , Regards , Vincent.

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Hoja
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Hoja » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:34 pm


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BlackBird
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:35 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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tiltbillings
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:52 pm


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appicchato
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby appicchato » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:22 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:40 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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appicchato
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby appicchato » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:38 am


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cooran
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby cooran » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:01 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Dan74
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Postby Dan74 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:09 am

Except of course, if you are simply trolling...

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