Becoming a Pali Scholar

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manjughosamani
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by manjughosamani »

Hello Kåre and Arhat,
arhat wrote:​I also quoted from Hinüber's paper about some Pali forms defying linguistic explanation.
Linguistic analysis, and especially historical linguistics, is dependent on a great deal of contextual detail and languages are remarkable systems, but they are not closed systems. As the American anthropological linguist Edward Sapir said, "All grammars leak".
No, we do not know that it was pronounced as dharma. What your example proves, is that the early Pali grammarians were able to think, and that they modeled their work on Sanskrit grammars.
There were no "Pali" grammarians until Kacchayana (6th century CE) i.e for a full 1000 years since the canon came into being.

What I'm saying is if dhr- was the root of both dhareti and dhamma (which is the case), dhamma should have to be *dharma, even if it is written non-phonetically as dhamma, if not it defies linguistic explanation.
This is actually a well known phenomenon in historical linguistics known as morphological conditioning.
Historical Linguistics: An Introduction; by Lyle Campbell wrote:Non-phonetic properties affecting sound change are typically called morphological conditioning (or grammatical conditioning) of sound change. Such changes involved sounds in their morphological or grammatical contexts, but are not really about morphological change per se.


So while the phonology of Pāḷi doesn't allow for consonant clusters of different consonants, there is no reason for verbs like dharati and jānāti which are CVCVCV to simplify, whereas for dharma and āna (which are CVCCV and CCVCV) to simplify into the dhamma and ññāna (which are the perfectly acceptable CVC:V and C:V:CV). Pāḷi doesn't allow for initial geminates, so ññāṇa simplifies to ñāṇa, but in another case of morphological conditioning we find that initial geminate is retained when prefixes are appended (viññāṇa, paññā).
Please read Norman's paper, from the point (pages 83-86) where he starts with the deficiencies of the original "Pali" script:

"There was another type of error, however, which was due to deficiencies in the early Indian writing system. In the earliest form of the Brāhmī script, double consonants were not written, and the marks for long vowels were frequently omitted."
The link appears to be broken, but both geminates and long vowels simply indicate length, and length and stress are common elements to be missing in phonetic scripts. This wouldn't indicate for instance that the latter use of geminates meant that they were masking more complicated conjuncts.

All the best.
Sabbe saṅkhārā anicca'ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.
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bharadwaja
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by bharadwaja »

manjughosamani wrote:So while the phonology of Pāḷi doesn't allow for consonant clusters of different consonants, there is no reason for verbs like dharati and jānāti which are CVCVCV to simplify, whereas for dharma and jñāna (which are CVCCV and CCVCV) to simplify into the dhamma and ññāna (which are the perfectly acceptable CVC:V and C:V:CV
The Pali canon did not have these double consonants at an earlier period... and this has been discussed in Norman's paper. Therefore your above inference (which assumes the Pali written forms were always stable) appears problematic.
manjughosamani wrote:The link appears to be broken, but both geminates and long vowels simply indicate length, and length and stress are common elements to be missing in phonetic scripts. This wouldn't indicate for instance that the latter use of geminates meant that they were masking more complicated conjuncts.
Length and stress are common elements to be missing in phonetic scripts? On the contrary, it by definition means such a script is not phonetic. But read the article for yourself.

For some reason, the site doesn't allow direct hyperlinking from an external site - please instead, go to http://www.shin-ibs.edu/documents/bForum/v5/ and click on 05Norman.pdf to access it.
Kare wrote:You need to substantiate this assertion. If you can prove that the Pali texts were written earlier, then let us continue this dialogue.
In the 3rd century BCE, Ashoka left an inscription at Bairat (in the western state of Rajasthan) in which, after saluting the sangha of Magadha, he names some of the suttas that he liked - one of them is the "Rahulovada".

If we assume Ashoka had a written text named "Rahulovada" that he had evidently read, and the monks had an identical text with them in their palm-leaf collection, Ashoka would have every reason to assume the monks would understand perfectly which suttas he was talking about.

If, on the other hand, Ashoka had only heard the suttas recited (and not read them from a written text), how would he expect the monks to locate (from their memories) a specific sutta through its name alone (without mentioning the nikaya, the vagga etc)?

Moreover, why did he evidently assume that some or most monks in the sangha had the ability to read his inscription if (let us assume) they were indeed not used to reading and writing texts? Why was he even "writing" them a message in that case?

That apart, for what conceivable reason would the Buddhists of the 3rd century BCE not make use of writing to record the canon, when the suttas and writing were both conclusively in existence?
manjughosamani
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by manjughosamani »

Hi Arhat,

I have read the chapter by Norman, although I was not able to access it from the Jōdo Shinshū site. However it is available on books.google.com. The article is chapter five of this text. Having read the chapter I don't believe it supports your contentions.
arhat wrote:
manjughosamani wrote:So while the phonology of Pāḷi doesn't allow for consonant clusters of different consonants, there is no reason for verbs like dharati and jānāti which are CVCVCV to simplify, whereas for dharma and jñāna (which are CVCCV and CCVCV) to simplify into the dhamma and ññāna (which are the perfectly acceptable CVC:V and C:V:CV
The Pali canon did not have these double consonants at an earlier period... and this has been discussed in Norman's paper. Therefore your above inference (which assumes the Pali written forms were always stable) appears problematic.
Norman's contention is not that the language(s) that formed the basis for the written language of Pāḷi and the early oral recessions of the canon lacked these consonants, but that the early orthography used to write it down did. However, the early orthographic versions were tied to a parallel oral tradition so even though the lack of indication of length for consonants and vowels allowed for the ambiguous readings of some items, the oral tradition was able to clarify these. What he proposes is that there was a rupture at some point where the oral tradition ceased while the written tradition continued. When length was introduced to the orthography the ambiguous readings were more problematic for the scribes and some errors were introduced. However, this does not negate the sound changes and the morphological conditioned sound changes I mentioned above or that earlier oral recension lacked vowel length or double consonants.
Length and stress are common elements to be missing in phonetic scripts? On the contrary, it by definition means such a script is not phonetic. But read the article for yourself.
What it means is it is not a completely phonetic orthography that accounts for all the subtleties of the language. The indic scripts represent fairly advanced efforts to represent the spoken languages in terms of place and manner of articulation, but they are not perfect. Scripts are the products of processes of change and accuracy is a gradient and matter of degree of accuracy and focus. Even more international efforts to create purely phonetic alphabets like the IPA undergo change as phoneticians discover new sounds and linguists improve their descriptions of different language varieties. Phonetics and phonology are also matters of focus. Very few linguists do much documentation with IPA or APA of suprasegmental phonology beyond some stress patterns and simple intonational contours, whereas linguistic anthropologists and sociolinguists will be quick to point out how much of actually performed speech depends on these many features.

All the best.
Sabbe saṅkhārā anicca'ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.
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Kare
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Kare »

arhat wrote:
Kare wrote:You need to substantiate this assertion. If you can prove that the Pali texts were written earlier, then let us continue this dialogue.
In the 3rd century BCE, Ashoka left an inscription at Bairat (in the western state of Rajasthan) in which, after saluting the sangha of Magadha, he names some of the suttas that he liked - one of them is the "Rahulovada".

If we assume Ashoka had a written text named "Rahulovada" that he had evidently read, and the monks had an identical text with them in their palm-leaf collection, Ashoka would have every reason to assume the monks would understand perfectly which suttas he was talking about.

If, on the other hand, Ashoka had only heard the suttas recited (and not read them from a written text), how would he expect the monks to locate (from their memories) a specific sutta through its name alone (without mentioning the nikaya, the vagga etc)?
When you memorize a text, you enter it into a database with very good and very quick search functions - aka the brain. Besides, we do not know how large part of the canon Asoka knew. Being a busy statesman he probably knew only a limited part of it, and it would have been easy for the monks to locate the sutta he mentions.

Moreover, why did he evidently assume that some or most monks in the sangha had the ability to read his inscription if (let us assume) they were indeed not used to reading and writing texts? Why was he even "writing" them a message in that case?
We do not know how many monks he assumed were able to read the inscriptions. A few would have been sufficient, because they could pass the word to the rest of them. That, in fact, was exactly how the monumental inscriptions worked in ancient kingdoms and empires. The pharaos (and the kings of Persia etc.) did not expect that everyone should be able to read their large and monumental inscription. There were only a few professional scribes and specialists who could read them. Most of the people were illiterate in any way. But those few who could read, could pass the word to the others. The function of the inscriptions was more to show authority than to convey information.
That apart, for what conceivable reason would the Buddhists of the 3rd century BCE not make use of writing to record the canon, when the suttas and writing were both conclusively in existence?
For what conceivable reason should they, when the already had a system that worked?

I asked for proofs. All you present is just empty speculations. If you can not present any proofs for you theories, you should do a serious revision of them.
Mettāya,
Kåre
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Assaji
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Assaji »

Greetings Coyote,
Coyote wrote:Unfortunately it looks like the courses offering the Pali language are very scarce in the UK, which is not surprising. If anyone has any information about departments, scholars or courses that are highly regarded please let me know.
I would recommend:
http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/?pid=58&sid= ... of-bristol
http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/?pid=58&sid= ... st-studies
http://www.dhamma.ru/sadhu/?pid=58&sid= ... st-studies

How to learn Pali:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14282

Good luck!
Coyote
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Coyote »

Many thanks Dmytro and Jeffrey for the course suggestions. Much appreciated.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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bharadwaja
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by bharadwaja »

I have read the chapter by Norman, although I was not able to access it from the Jōdo Shinshū site. However it is available on books.google.com. The article is chapter five of this text.
Try this URL (paper V)- http://www.shin-ibs.edu/academics/_forum/v5.php
Norman's contention is not that the language(s) that formed the basis for the written language of Pāḷi and the early oral recessions of the canon lacked these consonants, but that the early orthography used to write it down did.
Absolutely, I am only taking into account the facts about the original script (and not his theories about the language itself) from Norman's article.

I accept your claim that there was no change to the spoken language between the imperfectly written pre-Pali text, and the Pali texts that we currently possess i.e. the evolution was merely orthographic and not linguistic.

What he has shown is that the non-phonetic script originally used to write down the canon omitted double-consonants which are found in Pali (among other imperfections). Let us call this early written form (which lacks the geminates found in Pali) the pre-Pali form.

Therefore we have the following known forms for the Pali word Dhamma (listed in chronological order):

Old-Indic form: Dharma (all pre-Buddhist literature)
Pre-Pali form: Dhama (furthest away from the Old-Indic form)
Pali form: Dhamma (close to Old-Indic)
Post-Pali (i.e. Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit) form: Dharma (virtually identical to Old-Indic)

Therefore we see a trend between the Buddha's parinibbana and the start of the common era. Initially there was the Old-Indic form present in all pre-Buddhist literature where middle indic is completely absent. With the advent of writing in India, which happens to almost coincide with the the Buddha's parinibbana, we have the first written texts (i.e. the Buddhist canon), that too in the pre-pali form (which we now associate with the early Kharosthi texts, now called the Gandhari texts). However we have not found a copy of the entire canon from this written stage, all we have are a few suttas usually from some of the oldest parts of the canon (i.e. the sutta nipata), such as the Khaggavisana sutta etc.

The canon then either naturally evolves (or is artificially recast) into the pali form that we have today as the script evolves further and eventually becomes fully phonetic and capable of even expressing the Old-Indic conjunct consonants. This phonetic script is called the Brahmi script, which becomes the de-facto standard for both Pali and Old-Indic texts. The Kharosthi script also evolves to the extent of representing the conjunt consonants, but it still has limitations in displaying vowel length distinctions etc, and eventually is abandoned.

You said there was no change to the spoken language, and the evolution from pre-Pali to Pali was restricted to the script, which I accepted above. However I would like to extend the same logic both sides i.e. to before the pre-Pali stage and also to the post-Pali stage. I believe therefore that the language of the canon that was imperfectly written in the pre-Pali form, was probably spoken old-Indic. The spoken language never became middle-Indic, the existence of the intermediate forms i.e. pre-Pali, Pali etc. were due to introduction of writing and the evolution of orthography. This evidently completed a full circle by reaching the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit stage where the written form became virtually identical to Old-Indic.

Writing must have been first adopted in India by the Sangha as they evidently had no independent oral traditon to entrust their suttas to (considering also the sheer size of the canon). The canon therefore was probably always a written canon. Once the script had become fully phonetic, and Old-Indic could now be written phonetically, all new texts were read phonetically as they were written. The Pali texts (which earlier had not been read phonetically due to being in a non-phonetic script) now in the phonetic script were also read phonetically, giving rise to a new language, once called Paisachi, now called Pali.
However, the early orthographic versions were tied to a parallel oral tradition so even though the lack of indication of length for consonants and vowels allowed for the ambiguous readings of some items, the oral tradition was able to clarify these.

We don't know about that, the existence of such an independent oral tradition is entirely speculative. Norman assumes that they must have existed since he claims there is a word "bhanaka" in the commentarial literature which may have meant such oral reciters. However, these bhanakas, if they were indeed reciters of the suttas, cannot have formed an independent oral tradition so late in the canon's history i.e. nearly a 1000 years since the suttas were first recited, see below.
What he proposes is that there was a rupture at some point where the oral tradition ceased while the written tradition continued. When length was introduced to the orthography the ambiguous readings were more problematic for the scribes and some errors were introduced.
This means the rupture i.e. the demise of the independent oral tradition (if it was independent to begin with) happened when the written canon was at the the pre-Pali stage, since Pali has evidently inherited the ambiguities of that stage.

Therefore the word bhanaka found in the commentaries, if it referred to oral reciters, must not have meant an independent tradition, for such a tradition (assuming it did exist) evidently died out even before the pre-Pali text became our current Pali-canon.
I asked for proofs. All you present is just empty speculations.
That the canon was first reduced to writing in the 1st century BCE itself is an empty speculation. We don't have conclusive proofs for it.

As I said above, there exists a pre-Pali written form of suttas, which shows written forms that are older than Ashoka's rock edicts at Girnar. The pre-Pali written canon which must have once existed in its complete form must therefore pre-date Ashoka (3rd century BCE).
Qianxi
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Qianxi »

The idea that the Pali suttas were not passed down orally for several generations before being written down contradicts lots of evidence.

The fact that the suttas contain lots of details of the daily life and possessions of monks but never mention writing or writing implements; the fact that the suttas emphasise listening, memorisation and group recitation..

The fact that the suttas are composed in a style designed to aid memorisation (not Vedic style verse memorisation where you are not required to understand the text, but a memorisation technique tailored to adult reciters who would be expected to understand). Various alliterations, repetitions and set phrases, 'waxing syllable' patterns.. see here for more http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... nsions.pdf

In fact copying down the unwieldy repetitions in early Buddhist texts is a very inefficient use of precious writing materials. it's hard to imagine them being composed as written texts in that way. They must have been already fixed in oral form and the scribes felt they did not have the authority to change anything.

Comparing different versions of early texts it is possible to tell the copyists mistakes from the reciters mistakes. A sutta remembered and recited incorrectly might take a familiar route from one set paragraph 'pericope' to another, when the logic of the sutta actually demands a slightly less common combination of pericopes. Such errors are clearly mistakes of memorisation and idea association. Scribal errors on the other hand usually involve skipping lines or misreading letters.

It simply is possible for communities to jointly memorise vast texts and preserve them across generations just as accurately (or more!) than if they were scratched on perishable bits of bark and piled in a mouldy room. Even down to the 8th century AD there were Indian and Central Asian monks who came to China with a whole vinaya memorised, and then recited it for translation into Chinese.
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Assaji
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Assaji »

Here's what the modern scholars actually suggest.

Oskar von Hinüber writes in detail about the supposed absolutive endings and other hypothetical earlier Pali forms, which would conform to general phonetic pattern of Middle Indo-Aryan:

Pāli as an Artificial Language

http://www.indologica.com/volumes/vol10 ... inuber.pdf

Pāli: How Do We See It Eighty Years After Geiger’s Grammar?

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQTawXTc6vcC&pg=PA459

pp. 459-469

Pāli and Paiśācī as Variants of Buddhist Middle Indic

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQTawXTc6vcC&pg=PA505

pp. 505-521

Daniel Boucher quotes Norman and Bechert:

"K. R. Norman, for example, has argued: "It cannot be emphasized too much that all the versions of canonical Hinayana Buddhist texts which we possess are translations, and even the earliest we possess are translations of some still earlier version, now lost."(123) Heinz Bechert, on the other hand, has suggested that translation - a linguistic transfer between mutually unintelligible languages or dialects - is too strong a characterization of this process:
Some scholars believed that this transformation was a real "translation" of texts which at that time already existed as written literary texts. Others think - and I agree with them - that the transposition was no formalized translation. It was another kind of transformation from one dialect into another dialect, that took place in the course of a tradition, which was still an oral tradition, but had already entered the process of being formalized linguistically . . . .(124)

However, these positions are not necessarily as sharply opposed as they might first appear. Norman has shown that these "translations" were often carried out by scribes who applied certain phonetic rules mechanically.(125)"

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/daniel.htm

So essentially, scholars are talking about a probable "transposition" of certain consonant clusters - mostly the conversion of -(t)tā or -ṭṭha absolutive endings to -tvā and -svā.

In practice, this would mean minor differences in some words, and the supposed earlier form of Pali would be similar to the language of Hathigumpha inscription, as Kenneth Norman writes:

"It has been claimed in the case of Pali that as there are resemblances between it and the Girnar dialect of the Asokan inscriptions, and also between it and the language of the Hathigumpha inscriptions, Pali must have been the language of one or other of these two areas. A careful examination of the language of these inscriptions shows that Pali is not identical with either of them, and there is, moreover, some doubt about the language of the Girnar version of the Asokan inscriptions, since it is possible that it represents, in part at least, the scribe's attempt to convert the Eastern dialect he must have received from Pataliputra into what he thought was appropriate to the region in which the edict was being promulgated, rather than the actual dialect of that region. The language of the Hathigumpha inscription, although it agrees with Pali in the retention of most intervocalic consonants and in the nominative singular in -o, nevertheless differs in that the absolutive ending is -(t)tā, and with two doubtful exceptions there are no consonant groups containing -r-.

While it is not impossible that there existed in India in the third century B. C. an unattested dialect of Middle Indo-Aryan which had all the features of Pali, the fact that some of the consonant clusters found in Pali are unhistoric and must therefore represent incorrect attempts at backformation, e.g. disvā (which cannot be from dṛṣṭva) and atraja (which cannot be from ātmaja), makes it more likely that by the third century B.C. the dialect of the canonical texts of the Theravadins conformed to the general pattern of Middle Indo-Aryan dialects of that time, and all consonant clusters had either been assimilated or resolved. It is probable that this represented the form of the language of the Theravadin canon at the time of the reign of Asoka, which was perhaps the lingua franca of the Buddhists of Eastern India, and not very different from the language of the Hathigumpha inscriptions."

http://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress ... n_1983.pdf p. 5

For more details about the Hathigumpha inscription see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathigumpha_inscription
http://gujaratisbs.webs.com/Abstracts%2 ... 20More.pdf
http://orissa.gov.in/e-magazine/Journal ... f/9-10.pdf
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bharadwaja
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by bharadwaja »

Qianxi wrote:The idea that the Pali suttas were not passed down orally for several generations before being written down contradicts lots of evidence
.

Nope, in fact most of the earliest written texts of India are Buddhist. That apart, you conflate the period of the buddha with the period of the suttas.

Most or all prose suttas were composed some time after the buddha's parinibbana (when writing was in use), the only suttas that evidently existed from before the Buddha's parinibbana are in verse.

Therefore the only suttas that could have potentially been passed down orally from the Buddha's mouth in an unbroken oral tradition are poetry. The evidence from the canon is tangible -- when the Buddha asks a newly ordained householder Soṇa to recite the Dhamma, Soṇa recites the verses of the Atthaka vagga in a manner that wins the Buddha's appreciation, see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The poetry from the Atthakavagga is from the earliest part of the canon - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atthakavag ... ayanavagga

Only such poetry was capable of verbatim memorization & recitation, and this could be compared to the vedic poetry of the Brahmins in that time which was also similarly memorized and recited without the use of writing.
The fact that the suttas contain lots of details of the daily life and possessions of monks but never mention writing or writing implements; the fact that the suttas emphasise listening, memorisation and group recitation..
.

Writing was not used in the Buddha's own lifetime. So it is not surprising that the suttas do not mention the existence of writing in the Buddha's lifetime.

The suttas do not emphasize memorization and group recitation of the canon (or parts of it) as far as I know.
The fact that the suttas are composed in a style designed to aid memorisation (not Vedic style verse memorisation where you are not required to understand the text, but a memorisation technique tailored to adult reciters who would be expected to understand). Various alliterations, repetitions and set phrases, 'waxing syllable' patterns.. see here for more http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... nsions.pdf
The tipitaka itself means ti (three) pitaka (baskets). The canonical texts were put into 3 baskets i.e. physical baskets holding manuscripts of the canon. Nikaya means volume/collection, and the description of the nikayas as digha (long), majjhima (medium length), khuddaka (short), samyutta (grouped/connected), anguttara (increasing by one) indicate significant scribal & literary activity, measuring the length of written suttas, reclassifying them according to content, redacting the suttas into well ordered groupings i.e. the formation of the authentic canon (meant to exclude non-authentic suttas from being included) which cannot have happened except if the collection had been written down and was physically available as manuscripts in 3 baskets, rather than simply in the minds of monks.

However when they were first written, they were obviously recited once orally by someone (Ananda?), using stock phrases etc in many suttas as the article points out, but this first recital of the suttas (or the use of stock phrases or repetitions when reciting many suttas one after another) is not the same as (or indicative of the existence of) an "oral tradition".

Not even Ananda could have recited them back again verbatim, and the idea that bhikkus had unlimited photographic memories to do so is clearly unrealistic, they didn't even have the linguistic tools to start an independent oral tradition, unlike the Brahmanical oral tradition which had the auxiliary sciences called vedangas for support. The prose suttas must have been written down if they had to be preserved verbatim.
In fact copying down the unwieldy repetitions in early Buddhist texts is a very inefficient use of precious writing materials. it's hard to imagine them being composed as written texts in that way.
We don't know whether the earliest writing materials (birch bark & palm leaves, and metal nails/styluses used to inscribe the texts on the bark/leaves) were precious or not, they may have been the most common and naturally available writing materials.

Repetitions in the manuscripts were marked as "peyyala" (literally meaning "repetition") or abbreviated to "pe", so the reader had to assume a repetition if he/she found "peyyala" in a manuscript. This is similar to our use of the word "idem" or its abbreviation "id." in western literature.
It simply is possible for communities to jointly memorise vast texts and preserve them across generations just as accurately (or more!) than if they were scratched on perishable bits of bark and piled in a mouldy room.
When Buddhaghosa wrote the Sumangalavilasini, the Manorathapurani etc in the 5th century AD (i.e. about 1000 years after the Buddha's time), there was no independent oral tradition in existence, nor could anyone speak Pali natively being so far removed geographically and temporally from 5th C. BCE Magadha. It was only the written texts literally copied word by word (mistakes included) from earlier perishable manuscripts that ensured the existence of the canon and indeed the religion in his time. The same is true today.
Even down to the 8th century AD there were Indian and Central Asian monks who came to China with a whole vinaya memorised, and then recited it for translation into Chinese.
This is not true, the monks who came to India from China took physical manuscripts back with them, we even have some of those manuscripts today, see http://www.indologie.uni-muenchen.de/do ... kestan.pdf
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by tiltbillings »

arhat wrote: . . .
You are putting a great deal of energy into all of this, and much of what you are saying is scholarly speculation, not fact. What is your actual point here and does any of it actually matter for one's practice of the Dhamma? Or is this all of just academic interest?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Qianxi
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Qianxi »

arhat wrote:the monks who came to India from China took physical manuscripts back with them
Yes mostly, and increasingly as the centuries went by but for example the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya was translated in the early fifth century based on a text recited by Buddhayaśas from memory; the Sarvastivada Vinaya was translated at around the same time - two thirds of it was translated according to a text recited from memory by Puṇyatāra (who then died), the rest from a manuscript brought to China by Dharmaruci.

Anyway, that was just a brief example to show what feats of memorisation were possible (there are lots more examples, eg. modern monks in Myanmar and Sri Lanka http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jf-e ... ve&f=false ), but I don't think of the memorisation in early Buddhism as the work of individual masters as in the later period. In the early period the workload of memorisation would have been shared by a whole community.
The suttas do not emphasize memorization and group recitation of the canon (or parts of it) as far as I know.
There is this:
DN 29 "Therefore, Cunda, all you to whom I have taught these truths that I have realised by super-knowledge, should come together and recite them, setting meaning beside meaning and expression beside expression, without dissension, in order that this holy life may continue... And thus you should train yourselves, being assembled in harmony and without dissension. If a fellow in the holy life quotes the Dhamma in the assembly..." there follow instructions on how to resolve differences in recollection of the wording and understanding of the meaning.

DN 33 "[the exemplary monk] has learnt much, and bears much in mind and retains what he has learnt. In these teachings...he is deeply learned, he remembers them, recites them, reflects on them.." "These are the ten things which have been perfectly set forth by the Lord who knows and sees. So we should all recite them together without disagreement, so that this holy life may be long-lasting and established for a long time to come..."

MN 103 dispute about the phrasing of the teaching. Oral dispute, oral resolution - the new wording - is to be remembered, not written down. "While you are training in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, two bhikkhus might make different assertions about the higher Dhamma. Now if you should think thus: ‘These venerable ones differ about both the meaning and the phrasing,’ then whichever bhikkhu you think is the more reasonable should be approached and addressed thus.."
The tipitaka itself means ti (three) pitaka (baskets)
Yes, but the suttas don't refer to the tipitaka, they refer to the Dhamma and the Vinaya, or the Dhamma, Vinaya and Matikas.

My basic premise is that people in the premodern world were even worse than we are at imagining how people lived in the past. Whenever they described the past they couldn't avoid anachronisms. I just think it very unlikely that a community in which writing (or the tipitaka!) was very important would silently agree to not talk about it for the sake of creating a realistic vision of the Buddha's time. In fact if the suttas were largely composed a few decades after the Buddha, and they may have been as far as I know, they probably contain lots of subtle anachronisms that we can't detect. In Mahayana sutras its a bit more obvious: all those references to writing, stupas etc.
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by bharadwaja »

tiltbillings wrote:You are putting a great deal of energy into all of this, and much of what you are saying is scholarly speculation, not fact. What is your actual point here and does any of it actually matter for one's practice of the Dhamma? Or is this all of just academic interest?
If you believe, like I do, that the canon matters above everything else (to the theravada tradition) to acquire a true grasp of the Dhamma, it is absolutely vital to understand what is said in the canon properly. What is said in the canon can only be understood if it is translated (i.e. interpreted) correctly. For that we need to know the language of the canon and its history. There are hundreds of important Pali words that are poorly interpreted in our native languages for want of a historical and philological understanding, and it distorts our grasp of the Dhamma in significant ways.

So understanding the Dhamma correctly is the point, a proper understanding of Pali and the canon is the means of achieving a correct grasp over the Dhamma, and this is hopefully not simply of academic interest. Feel free to ignore if something sounds irrelevant.
Qianxi wrote:DN 29 ...
DN 33 ...
MN 103 ...
Thanks for the references, I stand corrected. I've checked these suttas in Pali. The examples you have cited above are about chanting poetry (literally "singing" them --- "saṅgāyitabbaṃ"), and correctly parsing the the forms of words therein to understand the meaning of the Dhamma from them. The examples do not describe memorizing and regurgitating prose passages.

I'm NOT saying the sangha never talked about Dhamma in prose during the Buddha's time, but that such dhamma talks were not verbatim memorizations and repetitions of the buddha's discourses. Only poetry was (if at all) memorized and quoted verbatim, and I have already mentioned an example of a poetry (Atthakavagga) recital by Sona to the Buddha above.
Qianxi wrote:I just think it very unlikely that a community in which writing (or the tipitaka!) was very important would silently agree to not talk about it for the sake of creating a realistic vision of the Buddha's time.
Both the newly composed prose suttas of the tipitaka, and the art of writing, were evidently very new to the Sangha, during the first 50-100 years after the Buddha's parinibbana. They sutta collection and the art of writing cannot have been as important to those who had lived with the Buddha, as they have been to later tradition.

In any case the existence of an oral tradition for prose is irrelevant, for it died out in the pre-Pali stage when the suttas were written with single consonants (eg. "udaka ramaputa") where later they were converted to the current Pali form with double consonants (eg. "uddaka ramaputta") etc. Thus the oral tradition has not resolved the mistakes in the written texts that still exist, and date from the time of the earliest written form.
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by binocular »

arhat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You are putting a great deal of energy into all of this, and much of what you are saying is scholarly speculation, not fact. What is your actual point here and does any of it actually matter for one's practice of the Dhamma? Or is this all of just academic interest?
If you believe, like I do, that the canon matters above everything else (to the theravada tradition) to acquire a true grasp of the Dhamma, it is absolutely vital to understand what is said in the canon properly. What is said in the canon can only be understood if it is translated (i.e. interpreted) correctly. For that we need to know the language of the canon and its history. There are hundreds of important Pali words that are poorly interpreted in our native languages for want of a historical and philological understanding, and it distorts our grasp of the Dhamma in significant ways.

So understanding the Dhamma correctly is the point, a proper understanding of Pali and the canon is the means of achieving a correct grasp over the Dhamma, and this is hopefully not simply of academic interest.
Of course. Although I think this also makes for a scary prospect - in the sense that one has to study and learn so much. Scary at least for those of us who are used to (and have gotten comfortable with) relying on Dhamma sources in one modern language, esp. English.
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Re: Becoming a Pali Scholar

Post by Kare »

arhat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You are putting a great deal of energy into all of this, and much of what you are saying is scholarly speculation, not fact. What is your actual point here and does any of it actually matter for one's practice of the Dhamma? Or is this all of just academic interest?
If you believe, like I do, that the canon matters above everything else (to the theravada tradition) to acquire a true grasp of the Dhamma, it is absolutely vital to understand what is said in the canon properly. What is said in the canon can only be understood if it is translated (i.e. interpreted) correctly. For that we need to know the language of the canon and its history. There are hundreds of important Pali words that are poorly interpreted in our native languages for want of a historical and philological understanding, and it distorts our grasp of the Dhamma in significant ways.

So understanding the Dhamma correctly is the point, a proper understanding of Pali and the canon is the means of achieving a correct grasp over the Dhamma, and this is hopefully not simply of academic interest. Feel free to ignore if something sounds irrelevant.
A highly commendable view. Now you just need to stop clinging to speculations and to get the facts right. BTW - where did you get your degree in Pali?
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