Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

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Kasina
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Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

Postby Kasina » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:56 pm

Howdy. Let me first for the record state that I believe in rebirth as taught in the canon... That is to say that, on the break-up of the body, if the causes of craving/clinging/suffering have not been eradicated, they will arise once more as a being in samsara.

:soap:

But, that's enough of that, that was more so there isn't any confusion at what I'm getting at here. So, without further ado:

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html Trans. Thanissaro)

So, what I take from this is that, dependent on the eye (sense organ) and forms, there arises eye consciousness (or sight? Would one differentiate sight here? Or is "sight" something one arbitrarily attributes to eye consciousness?). Now, the Buddha does not endorse annihilationism, nor does he endorse eternalism, nor does he endorse them both:

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html Trans. Thanissaro)

Following this, the Buddha can't be putting forward a materialist view, that consciousness, or rather awareness... Or better yet, existence (in materialism, or physicalism, it is assumed that all matter has existence "out there" whilst all "subjective" phenomena arise do to neural events-- indeed, this view is further different than what is mentioned in the Lokasutta. Consciousness of the world (under materialism) doesn't need to be dependent on outside causes. It is only causes within the brain, ie taking hallucinogenic drugs. The point being, existence is an epiphenomenal illusion, within materialism) relies on a living body, and forms for it to interact with.

Well, hm. I must tread lightly here, because I feel as though I am making matters worse. I suppose, to simplify, I should ask what is consciousness in Buddhism? Would I be right to say that all fabrications have existence independent of minds? Which is to say that, as I look at the screwdriver on my desk, it's not my experience of the screwdriver, nor is it a screwdriver, but a mass of fabrication that exists in-and-of itself? This is difficult for me to put into words.

Looking forward to some replies to help me sort this out :rolleye:

Metta, Josh.
:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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daverupa
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Re: Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

Postby daverupa » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:52 pm

Kasina wrote:...I feel as though I am making matters worse. I suppose, to simplify, I should ask what is consciousness in Buddhism? Would I be right to say that all fabrications have existence independent of minds? Which is to say that, as I look at the screwdriver on my desk, it's not my experience of the screwdriver, nor is it a screwdriver, but a mass of fabrication that exists in-and-of itself? This is difficult for me to put into words.


You might be thinking that 'loka' means things like screwdrivers, but it just means six-sense experience, and a screwdriver can be many sorts of experiences within that category. It's fabricated in terms of being a seen thing (and therefore part of the tripartite contact process, and so forth) as well as being seen as for something or some task for me or others, and so on. It was made to be something, the idea was made before the object, etc. There's a lot of ways to parse this.

The trick, therefore, is to keep the Dhamma's framework in mind - dukkha & dukkhanirodha - and not worry about calculating various permutations of possible ontological implication. There's no point in it. Look for greed, hate, delusion and their causes, and then practice for their cessation. Instead of thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, or in terms of what something is or isn't in-itself, examine experience within the confines of the Four Truths and the principles of conditionality inherent there.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Kasina
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Re: Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

Postby Kasina » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:21 pm

daverupa wrote:
Kasina wrote:...I feel as though I am making matters worse. I suppose, to simplify, I should ask what is consciousness in Buddhism? Would I be right to say that all fabrications have existence independent of minds? Which is to say that, as I look at the screwdriver on my desk, it's not my experience of the screwdriver, nor is it a screwdriver, but a mass of fabrication that exists in-and-of itself? This is difficult for me to put into words.


You might be thinking that 'loka' means things like screwdrivers, but it just means six-sense experience, and a screwdriver can be many sorts of experiences within that category. It's fabricated in terms of being a seen thing (and therefore part of the tripartite contact process, and so forth) as well as being seen as for something or some task for me or others, and so on. It was made to be something, the idea was made before the object, etc. There's a lot of ways to parse this.

The trick, therefore, is to keep the Dhamma's framework in mind - dukkha & dukkhanirodha - and not worry about calculating various permutations of possible ontological implication. There's no point in it. Look for greed, hate, delusion and their causes, and then practice for their cessation. Instead of thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, or in terms of what something is or isn't in-itself, examine experience within the confines of the Four Truths and the principles of conditionality inherent there.

:heart:


:goodpost:

Thank you Dave... I agree that is the best way to go about things, and I'm sensitive to my tendency to want to break everything down and understand it, which I suppose just ends up being an obstacle on the path. At the same time, fostering some sort of framework of understanding helps my analytical side hop on board the actual practice, and when reading very thorough expositions on the Dhamma (like those of Ven. Nanananda), I can find myself in a very clear, insightful mode of consciousness... Ah, maybe I need to work on this a bit more :juggling:

PS I suppose the heart of my question is, what's it like to attain Nibbana? But I guess that's an imponderable subject that I can only ever know through experience.

:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?


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Kasina
Posts: 300
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Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
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Re: Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

Postby Kasina » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:08 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Ananda26
Posts: 171
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Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Trouble understanding Nibbana/Loka/Six Sense Bases

Postby Ananda26 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:04 pm

Kasina wrote:Howdy. Let me first for the record state that I believe in rebirth as taught in the canon... That is to say that, on the break-up of the body, if the causes of craving/clinging/suffering have not been eradicated, they will arise once more as a being in samsara.

:soap:

But, that's enough of that, that was more so there isn't any confusion at what I'm getting at here. So, without further ado:

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html Trans. Thanissaro)

So, what I take from this is that, dependent on the eye (sense organ) and forms, there arises eye consciousness (or sight? Would one differentiate sight here? Or is "sight" something one arbitrarily attributes to eye consciousness?). Now, the Buddha does not endorse annihilationism, nor does he endorse eternalism, nor does he endorse them both:

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"


(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html Trans. Thanissaro)

Following this, the Buddha can't be putting forward a materialist view, that consciousness, or rather awareness... Or better yet, existence (in materialism, or physicalism, it is assumed that all matter has existence "out there" whilst all "subjective" phenomena arise do to neural events-- indeed, this view is further different than what is mentioned in the Lokasutta. Consciousness of the world (under materialism) doesn't need to be dependent on outside causes. It is only causes within the brain, ie taking hallucinogenic drugs. The point being, existence is an epiphenomenal illusion, within materialism) relies on a living body, and forms for it to interact with.

Well, hm. I must tread lightly here, because I feel as though I am making matters worse. I suppose, to simplify, I should ask what is consciousness in Buddhism? Would I be right to say that all fabrications have existence independent of minds? Which is to say that, as I look at the screwdriver on my desk, it's not my experience of the screwdriver, nor is it a screwdriver, but a mass of fabrication that exists in-and-of itself? This is difficult for me to put into words.

Looking forward to some replies to help me sort this out :rolleye:

Metta, Josh.
:anjali:


The Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana. With Nibbana one is freed from the round of rebirths and so freed for ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.

Loka refers to the world.

There is this sixfold sense base: eye base, ear base, nose base, tongue base, body base, and mind base.

These 6 bases are impermanent and subject to change. Therefore they are not fit to be reguarded as self.

This discourse shows how the sixfold base fits in with dependent origination. The 4 Noble Truths are very comprehensive. One can see how the world also fits in with Buddha's teaching of dependent origination.


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