Are killing trees bad Kamma?

[DNS]

You could also take that to the extreme and say "Well, I killed a person but my intentions were only good so it didn't make any bad kamma"? How can that be? You still killed someone?

Or, perhaps you could say that people are sometimes not even aware of what their intentions even are, and perhaps fool themselves into thinking they are good, when they actually aren't good?

The interactions between various fabrications and these roots & their opposites is discussed at AN 3.69.

Yes good points above. There might be the feeling that one is doing 'right' but it could really be rooted in something unwholesome. Someone might even kill with the 'intention' that they are doing good, even whole wars get started this way, but as we know they are rooted in greed, aversion, and / or delusion.

One monk performed immoral acts and stated that "I feel neither ease nor discomfort, thus there will be no offense for me." The Buddha responded, "whether this foolish man felt or did not feel, there is an offense." (Vinaya, Suttavibhanga 3.36)

[daverupa]

intention is a form of or part of kamma.

Having intended, one does action by way of body, speech, or mind. There is no other pathway of action. I suppose there could be unconscious electrified-movement, that might be action by way of body that has no underlying intention, but in such a case I don't think we really care about that action because it's ethically inert - unintentional action isn't kamma. The only kind of kamma is intentional action.

So intention leads to ethically significant action, either of the proliferating sort with various dark & bright results, or the sort that leads on to the ending of kamma. There is no case where unintentional spasms of body, speech, or mind are ethically efficacious.

[lyndon taylor]

Well that's the "kamma is all in your head" way of looking at it, I happen to see kamma as a force of nature, like gravity, far more than just psychological......

Plus the kamma=intention viewpoint does a really lousy job of explaining kamma acting upon you, without anything to do with your intentions.

[daverupa]

I happen to see kamma as a force of nature, like gravity, far more than just psychological......

Then it's not the kamma the Buddha was concerned with.

Plus the kamma=intention viewpoint does a really lousy job of explaining kamma acting upon you, without anything to do with your intentions.

Kamma doesn't act in that way.

[lyndon taylor]

Well that's a very secular Buddhist way of looking at things, certainly not in line with what I was taught.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Well that's a very secular Buddhist way of looking at things, certainly not in line with what I was taught.

It's in line with the suttas... people don't necessarily teach from the suttas, however.

Metta,
Retro.

[seeker242]

I don't see anywhere in the buddhist scripture where it says that Kamma=intention

Well...

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma.

So there can be an intent of greed if I say "Ooh, I want that chocolate ice cream!" - I'm not intending to be greedy, but I have an intent that's rooted in greed.

So you could say it's an "unintentional intention"? Surely no one intends to have this root of greed there, influencing their actions, to begin with. But then again, how can you have an intention that's actually unintentional?!?!

[lyndon taylor]

The suttas do not teach that kamma is only intention, and as far as I know they don't go into the metaphysics of how kamma works, but as our moderators seem to believe "its all in our heads". You certainly can't explain the action of kamma as outlined in the scriptures as being purely made up of intentions and nothing else.

[daverupa]

You certainly can't explain the action of kamma as outlined in the scriptures as being purely made up of intentions and nothing else.

Have done.

Please bring more citations to our attention, friend.



And seeker242, can you say that again? I want to understand what you see as the contradiction.

For our reference:

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

Also, remember to consider AN 3.69 & the fact that we are to consider the six sense spheres as old kamma.

[SarathW]

The suttas do not teach that kamma is only intention, and as far as I know they don't go into the metaphysics of how kamma works, but as our moderators seem to believe "its all in our heads". You certainly can't explain the action of kamma as outlined in the scriptures as being purely made up of intentions and nothing else.

Dead body (Rupa) can’t create Kamma.
So only Nama (excluding Vedana and Sanna) can crate Kamma.

[lyndon taylor]

If you still believe something never written in the suttas, that kamma=intention, that they are identical, as opposed to my contention; that intention is one very important ASPECT of kamma, ie intention is part of kamma. Then I suggest you try a simple experiment, try reading through suttas focusing on kamma, except everytime you see the word kamma, replace it with intention, after all you say they're identical, before long my guess is that the meaning of the text will stop being as clear, for while kamma sometimes or even often refers to intention, it doesn't always mean intention, it also refers to action and consequences, etc, etc IMHO.

[Ben]

Greetings Lyndon,

Perhaps you have some textual support for your contention?
If so, please share it.

Ben

[lyndon taylor]

I do, as I said, just read any sutta replacing every word kamma with intention and see if it still makes sense.

And while everyone is asking for scriptural references, I still haven't seen any suttas that say kamma is equal or identical to intention, and no the statement intention is kamma does not prove that as I have thoroughly demonstrated in previous posts.

Anyway here's the link to Bhikku Bodhi, Cooran posted which mentions all kinds of attributes to kamma that have nothing to do with intention;

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha057.htm

[DNS]

Anyway here's the link to Bhikku Bodhi, Cooran posted which mentions all kinds of attributes to kamma that have nothing to do with intention;

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha057.htm

Look at that article again and do a word search (Ctrl f) for intention.

[DNS]

Intention is kamma, however, this need not be misinterpreted to mean that psychopaths and war-mongers are off the hook (see also my earlier post).

A person could perform some unwholesome deed or thought with absolutely no remorse, no feelings of doing anything wrong. They might even think they are doing the 'greater good' for society or the world. However, it could be from delusion, or from one of the other akusala mulas, unwholesome roots of lobha, dosa, moha (greed, hate, delusion).

See also: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 3-piya.pdf