Why would a creator god need a creator god?

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Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:52 pm

This is from another thread:

Say some one ask the question "Who create God" when some one answer "God create the world"
Can the answer be "You have gone too far .......... etc"

If not why?

No, because the question is advocating creation and intelligent design hence the creator must also has a creator and so forth to keep the logic alive.

In Buddhism, creation of the world does not apply. It is formation and natural order.


Why would the Creator need to have a creator and so ad infinitum?

I've often seen it claimed that a creator god needs a creator god and so into infinite regress, but never seen it explained why this would necessarily be so.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:25 pm

Well, some members of the Abrahamic faiths always ask us where did the world come from, who created the universe? So I guess it is from that some adherents from Dharmic religions ask, who created God?

Most Dharmic religions (Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, perhaps others) say that a first beginning is not discernible. This seems to make sense more than just saying "God was always there, there is no creator of God".

Astronomers talk of the big bang and the numerous (billions, trillions or more) solar systems and galaxies and how a new one evolves from the matter left behind of the old, seemingly ad infinatum.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:04 pm

binocular wrote:Why would the Creator need to have a creator and so ad infinitum?

I've often seen it claimed that a creator god needs a creator god and so into infinite regress, but never seen it explained why this would necessarily be so.


It might be informative to consider the question "if the creator doesn't need to have a creator, why does the universe need to have a creator?"
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby binocular » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:26 pm

culaavuso wrote:It might be informative to consider the question "if the creator doesn't need to have a creator, why does the universe need to have a creator?"

I think that the whole issue around The Creator is a matter of acknowledging the credits so that people know whom to express gratitude to.

I've never thought about it in mere ontological terms stripped of any reference to credits, gratitude and indebtedness.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Jetavan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:17 pm

binocular wrote:Why would the Creator need to have a creator and so ad infinitum?

I've often seen it claimed that a creator god needs a creator god and so into infinite regress, but never seen it explained why this would necessarily be so.


I think one reason why a creator would need to have a creator is that, in order to be a creator, one must 'act' in such a way that one 'creates' something. If 'action' occurs, then some sort of change in the creator is occurring. If the creator is 'acting', that is, 'changing', then the creator is not unchanging; thus, the creator, like any other conditioned entity, 'changes'.

Everything that changes, changes due to causes and conditions. Thus, the creator (as something that changes) itself needs a creator. And that creator needs a creator. And so on.

There's one Christian church that would have no problem with a creator having a creator. That church is the Mormon church.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:33 pm

Why a creator god in the first place?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Jetavan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Why a creator god in the first place?
One theory: our ancestors noticed that since humans (unlike many other animals) are pretty good at creating tools, clothing, fire, etc., then the world itself (rivers, trees, sky) must be a creation of some entity/ies or other.

It's interesting that Genesis, in Hebrew, does not imply creation from nothingness. It implies a deity (or deities: "elohim" is plural) creating from previously existing material. In fact, the Hebrew Genesis itself does not preclude the idea of the "elohim" themselves having been created.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:04 pm

Jetavan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Why a creator god in the first place?
One theory: our ancestors noticed that since humans (unlike many other animals) are pretty good at creating tools, clothing, fire, etc., then the world itself (rivers, trees, sky) must be a creation of some entity/ies or other.

It's interesting that Genesis, in Hebrew, does not imply creation from nothingness. It implies a deity (or deities: "elohim" is plural) creating from previously existing material. In fact, the Hebrew Genesis itself does not preclude the idea of the "elohim" themselves having been created.
In other words, the idea of a creator god creates more questions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:11 pm

binocular wrote:
culaavuso wrote:It might be informative to consider the question "if the creator doesn't need to have a creator, why does the universe need to have a creator?"

I think that the whole issue around The Creator is a matter of acknowledging the credits so that people know whom to express gratitude to.

I've never thought about it in mere ontological terms stripped of any reference to credits, gratitude and indebtedness.


If the universe needs a creator as a means for expressing gratitude for the universe, then to whom should we express gratitude for the creator?
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Ben » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:15 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Why a creator god in the first place?


To help make sense of our place in a seemingly incomprehensible universe.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:18 pm

Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Why a creator god in the first place?


To help make sense of our place in a seemingly incomprehensible universe.
And the idea of a creator god just adds on more layers of incomprehensible to the universe.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby waterchan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Why a creator god in the first place?


To help make sense of our place in a seemingly incomprehensible universe.
And the idea of a creator god just adds on more layer of incomprehensible to the universe.


Not if it makes the incomprehensible comprehensible at any cost.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Jetavan » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:19 pm

I think as we learn more about the cosmos, we might learn that a creation of a cosmos is in the realm of human possibility. Even at this moment, there might be physically based beings of such intelligence that they have been able to manipulate matter in such a way to create a black hole or singularity, by means of which a new universe (or two) can be created. Maybe these beings have also figured out a way to adjust the physical constants of the universes they create (making gravity a little bit stronger, or electricity a little weaker). Maybe they also figured out ways to set a "time-limit" on the existence of these new universes. These beings would still be in the web of kamma-vipaka, however; and would themselves be the 'creations' (i.e., children) of one or more parental beings.
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:00 pm

I was brought up as a child to worship parents, grandparents and adults etc.
I even worship my teacher who taught me skills.
This tradition is fading away.

I think God idea has help the monkey to become the first human.
Just imagine we try to teach Buddhism to a monkey!

I ask my children to pray to God.
That is the quickest way I can teach them how to respect others.
Hopefully they will understand Buddhism one day.

Based on above ground I don’t think that we need to know who create God. :shrug:
Answer to this question is depend on the level of individual development.

See my previous post "Not believing in God is not such a good idea"
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15942
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:09 am

SarathW wrote: "Not believing in God is not such a good idea"
Believing in a god is even less a good idea.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby Ben » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:13 am

SarathW wrote:I was brought up as a child to worship parents, grandparents and adults etc.
I even worship my teacher who taught me skills.
This tradition is fading away.

I think God idea has help the monkey to become the first human.
Just imagine we try to teach Buddhism to a monkey!

I ask my children to pray to God.
That is the quickest way I can teach them how to respect others.
Hopefully they will understand Buddhism one day.

Based on above ground I don’t think that we need to know who create God. :shrug:
Answer to this question is depend on the level of individual development.

See my previous post "Not believing in God is not such a good idea"
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15942


With respect, I disagree with you Sarath.
I have been able to teach my children to respect others without the need to believe in a god.
I've given them a foundation in Dhamma but I've also encouraged them to question everything and think for themselves. They do not need the carrot and stick from some invisible grumpy old man in the clouds to know what is right or wrong.
Whether or not they are attracted to the Dhamma later on will be a matter of their kamma.
Kind regards,
Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby SarathW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:23 am

Thanks Ben.
:)
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:25 am

Ben wrote:
SarathW wrote:I was brought up as a child to worship parents, grandparents and adults etc.
I even worship my teacher who taught me skills.
This tradition is fading away.

I think God idea has help the monkey to become the first human.
Just imagine we try to teach Buddhism to a monkey!

I ask my children to pray to God.
That is the quickest way I can teach them how to respect others.
Hopefully they will understand Buddhism one day.

Based on above ground I don’t think that we need to know who create God. :shrug:
Answer to this question is depend on the level of individual development.

See my previous post "Not believing in God is not such a good idea"
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15942


With respect, I disagree with you Sarath.
I have been able to teach my children to respect others without the need to believe in a god.
I've given them a foundation in Dhamma but I've also encouraged them to question everything and think for themselves. They do not need the carrot and stick from some invisible grumpy old man in the clouds to know what is right or wrong.
Whether or not they are attracted to the Dhamma later on will be a matter of their kamma.
Kind regards,
Ben
Morality and positive behavior towards others is not dependent upon a god idea.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby SarathW » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:42 am

Agree.
But how do you teach, Morality and positive behavior towards others to a fool?
Due to fear some people avoid bad action.
:thinking:
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Re: Why would a creator god need a creator god?

Postby daverupa » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:46 am

SarathW wrote:Agree.
But how do you teach, Morality and positive behavior towards others to a fool?
Due to fear some people avoid bad action.
:thinking:


Well, they can be instructed in the consequences of actions without lying to them about the existence of a creator deity.

This last always takes the form of unmoved mover (e.g. causeless cause) ideation, which is basically a "here there be dragons" for the edges of cognitive space.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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