Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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imagemarie
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by imagemarie »

I can't recall the reference, but in one of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's talks, he recommends

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sirens-Titan-Ku ... 556&sr=1-4

for it's ideas, which echo the dhamma. I'm grateful he did. It's a terrific book.

:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by daverupa »

imagemarie wrote:it's ideas, which echo the dhamma
Maybe if the echo is enough of an echo to teach Dhamma, it's a Dhamma book, while if the echo is not enough to teach Dhamma, it's not a Dhamma book.

Maybe good literature always discusses existential themes, and this relatively similarity with aspects of dukkha is the key component. But if so, why is an echo to be preferred over a sutta? The words of artists and poets...

And what about strictly non-Dhamma books? Maybe an example will help:

Image

What's to be said about a monastic who goes about reading this sort of thing, of an afternoon?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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appicchato
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by appicchato »

Image

What's to be said about a monastic who goes about reading this sort of thing, of an afternoon?
Really?...
daverupa
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by daverupa »

appicchato wrote:Really?...
It seems obviously inappropriate, of course. I just wanted to set up one end of the spectrum, so we could find a place where non-Dhamma books that didn't broach Dhamma themes were acceptable undertakings for monastics. This example doesn't seem to qualify as such a thing. Is there any fiction that does?

---

Surely some philosophy works or psychology works or certain works of history could all be put to good use, while a nonfiction book on ancient Mesopotamian economics probably couldn't be.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
beeblebrox
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by beeblebrox »

binocular wrote: And in a similar manner like Lucy, there are many worldly books (and films, songs etc.) that point out problems, and sometimes, I think they have quite a good understanding of the problem. But the solutions they offer are incomplete, lead to more suffering, more greed, anger, and delusion.
I don't believe that books with incomplete solutions are what lead us to more suffering, or greed, anger and delusion. That isn't in accord with what the Buddha taught.
I get frustrated by worldly books, films, etc. because they seem to me that they are beating around the bush, that they don't go into a real in-depth analysis of the problem they are presenting, they hover on the surface - and what is so frustrating is because I cannot figure out whether that superficiality, that beating around the bush is deliberate or not.
So, what does the Buddha have to say about this problem? I don't think the frustration actually comes from the books themselves... would it make sense to you if someone said the same thing about some of the Pali Canon? (Whether you believe this or not, there are actually people who get frustrated, or confused, with what the Buddha say in the Canon.)

:anjali:
Last edited by beeblebrox on Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dan74
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by Dan74 »

daverupa wrote:
appicchato wrote:Really?...
It seems obviously inappropriate, of course. I just wanted to set up one end of the spectrum, so we could find a place where non-Dhamma books that didn't broach Dhamma themes were acceptable undertakings for monastics. This example doesn't seem to qualify as such a thing. Is there any fiction that does?

---

Surely some philosophy works or psychology works or certain works of history could all be put to good use, while a nonfiction book on ancient Mesopotamian economics probably couldn't be.
I don't know, Dave, how many monks do you know?

I suspect that even the best monastics are mostly still sentient beings and wish for some light amusement sometimes. Is it really so bad?
_/|\_
binocular
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by binocular »

imagemarie wrote:I can't recall the reference, but in one of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's talks, he recommends

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sirens-Titan-Ku ... 556&sr=1-4

for it's ideas, which echo the dhamma. I'm grateful he did. It's a terrific book.
I know he mentions the book, but I'm not so sure he actually recommended it as a Dhamma book.

daverupa wrote:Maybe good literature always discusses existential themes, and this relatively similarity with aspects of dukkha is the key component. But if so, why is an echo to be preferred over a sutta? The words of artists and poets...
Exactly. It seems like a waste to spend time on books etc. that do broach existential topics, but which do not give useful insights and instructions as suttas do.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Aloka
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by Aloka »

Dan74 wrote: I don't know, Dave, how many monks do you know?

I suspect that even the best monastics are mostly still sentient beings and wish for some light amusement sometimes. Is it really so bad?
How many Theravada monks do you know yourself, Dan ? I thought you were a Zen practitioner...or has that changed now ?


.
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by binocular »

Dan74 wrote:I suspect that even the best monastics are mostly still sentient beings and wish for some light amusement sometimes. Is it really so bad?
Journalists sometimes ask the Dalai Lama about how he manages to live without sex and whether he misses it and such.

Asking him such a question reveals they don't know much about his life and his practice. Worldly people tend to assume that celibacy is pretty much a matter of gritting one's teeth and bearing it.

And similarly, that renouncing any worldly pleasure is a matter of "gritting one's teeth and bearing it." They seem to be unable to envision that the desire for worldly pleasures at some point falls away, and that it requires no effort not to seek worldly pleasures anymore.

Dan74 wrote:I could equally say 'were these people but pointless fools who spent their lives scribbling nothing of use or interest to an enlightened personage like binocular?'
Oh-ho.

My dismay with worldy literature comes from my being repeatedly disappointed with it, despite investing high hopes in it. I still read books, watch films etc. with the hope to find The Revelation, The Insight in them. But repeatedly, I get let down.
I also get repeatedly let down by people who promote worldy literature. So far, they have not taught me how to enjoy literature, even though I have specifically asked them to do so. Googling "how to enjoy reading literature" gives plenty of results. But so far, all I have checked - and I have checked many - only give tips on how to go about the reading of books, none explain how to actually enjoy them. I won't go here into the dismissive replies I got from lovers of reading myself.

Moreover, there are new streams of thought on the ethics of reading as such, reflectingon topics such as whether it is ethical to devote oneself to others via reading as much as some popularizers of reading would have us do.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by DNS »

Personally I never liked reading fiction too much. I mostly read and continue to read nonfiction. For monks I suppose it could be some gray area. Most fiction books tend to have some inspiring character who overcomes some difficulties and attains some noble goal and good usually triumphs over evil. Most are pretty wholesome.

Ven. Dhammika when talking about reasons monks disrobe mentioned something like one-third due to difficulties dealing with lust, one-third over not handling the rigors of monasticism and one-third due to boredom. Reading books of any type might alleviate some of the boredom, while perhaps not being unwholesome either. There are plenty of worse things that some bad monks engage in.

Many lay people don't realize the typical life of a monk includes plenty of 'idle' time. Most monks do not meditate during all the non-pastoral duty times.
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Mr Man
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by Mr Man »

Perhaps the question should be "Can Monks read for recreational purposes", as possibly it is more about how we interact with the written word that makes the action skilful or non skilful.
What makes a book a "dhamma" book could possibly just be our own proclivities. The notion that a particular text is of a fundamentally higher value might possibly be a superstitious belief.
daverupa
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by daverupa »

Mr Man wrote:Perhaps the question should be "Can Monks read for recreational purposes"
The overarching topic seems to be about monastic recreation generally. There was another topic on this subject, to do with sports:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=20225

---

As David said earlier, a large problem for monastics to deal with is boredom. So what about all this idle time that's given to them by design? I had thought bhavana under trees, in empty huts, else walking or reciting Dhamma or other trainings alongside whatever ecclesiastical duties - boredom is an influx, I'd have thought, not to be alleviated through kamaguna.

After all, that's why they leave the home life & take alms - to free up this time, clearing it of householder activities and other distracting obligations. To then shove recreation into these time slots seems... misguided.
Dan74 wrote:I suspect that even the best monastics are mostly still sentient beings and wish for some light amusement sometimes. Is it really so bad?
Is it sensual entertainments they seek? Yeah, that's hellish-bad.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
---

As David said earlier, a large problem for monastics to deal with is boredom. So what about all this idle time that's given to them by design? I had thought bhavana under trees, in empty huts, else walking or reciting Dhamma or other trainings alongside whatever ecclesiastical duties - boredom is an influx, I'd have thought, not to be alleviated through kamaguna.
That is the ideal monk, of course.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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imagemarie
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by imagemarie »

In Ajahn Sucitto's blog "Reflections: How Things Should Be and The Way It Is" :tongue: http://sucitto.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/h ... it-is.html, the venerable makes a didactic point by quoting from Jorge Luis Borges' story "The Immortal". Perhaps this is a book he remembers reading before becoming a monk. Perhaps he needed to revisit it, in order to make this specific reference.
I think it was well worth the "transgression" if indeed, he read the book, or part of it, again.


Binocular: I don't think I referred to "The Sirens of Titan" as a Dhamma Book. I used the word "echo", in the sense of "be reminiscent of or have shared characteristics with".

:anjali:
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appicchato
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Re: Can Monks read non dhamma books?

Post by appicchato »

...a large problem for monastics to deal with is boredom.
Mmm...perhaps a more accurate description might be 'for some (or even most) monastics'...also, one might postulate that those who do become, or are, bored have not (yet, or are unable to have) delved deeply enough into the program (practice) to be at ease, no matter the setting...adding to that the diverseness of human nature. It's not a stretch (personally speaking) to say that boredom (strictly speaking) is not, nor ever has been, in the dictionary...
Last edited by appicchato on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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