Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I would say no

People who are interested in Dhamma will seek it, those who arent wont :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
binocular
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by binocular »

pilgrim wrote:Many Buddhist converts I know have one regret, that no one told them about the Dhamma earlier.
Doesn't mean they would have preferred to have the Dhamma rammed down their throats.

Sati1 wrote:Great citation by CS Lewis. It hadn't occurred to me that proselytizing is actually a way of taking freedom from the other person.
I'm not sure inasmuch proselytizing takes freedom from the other person.

The main problem I see with proselytizing is that the proselytizer sees themselves, and expects - even demands - to be seen as the obligatory link between the person and nirvana.

As if to say "Nobody gets to nirvana except through me, Joe Buddhist!"

When people request to be instructed - as in actually request, saying something like "Will you please teach me?" - that's one thing.

But unilaterally imposing oneself on others as their teacher - that can get really nasty, especially if the supposed teacher isn't all that knowledgeable and skilled.
I think that constitutes abuse.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Aloka
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Aloka »

Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?
No. The word "convert" makes me think of Christian missionaries and the people who ring my doorbell on Sundays !

:)
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sati1 wrote:On the other hand, it seems like bringing someone to the Dhamma must be a tremendously compassionate and meritorious act. While it often seems easiest just to live my Buddhist faith in private, that also feels like a selfish strategy. Any thoughts on this? And does anybody have a citation from a sutta on this topic?
Maybe you could help to support a local Buddhist group / class / centre?
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dhammafriend
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by dhammafriend »

I have been struggling with this question recently...
Hi Sati1

No need to convert or share the dhamma without anyone asking about it. If its a theoretical discussion on religion then express your views.
Usually those who seek Dhamma (whether they know it or not) will be more receptive that those who have no inclination.

This is what I do, if its my birthday or a special day like Vesak etc I invite friends to join me in offering a meal and other assistance to the monks.
This way they will have some kind of kammic connection in this life that might bear fruit. No need for them to listen to long deshana etc. Just spend time with monks and share a meal together.

You are right to be cognizant of kamma:

"I am the owner of my deeds (kamma):
I inherit my deeds.
I am born of my deeds.
I am related to my deeds.
I live supported by my deeds.
Whatever deeds I create, whether good or evil, that I shall inherit."

The Buddha, Anguttara Nikaya V.57 - Upajjhatthana Sutta

Here's one story for you. I once had a conversation with a close friend about Dhamma, which gave him a lot of food for thought. We never spoke of it again. Later he left for Taiwan for work and came back a (Mahayana) Buddhist. He met a master who inspired him, asked for refuge vows, and stayed a bit longer in Taiwan for the formal refuge ceremony. He's quite devoted, even though he still works closely with local church groups (but does not participate in prayers), he's openly Buddhist.

Kamma came to fruition for him. :anjali:

Dhammafriend
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Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Aloka wrote:
Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?
No. The word "convert" makes me think of Christian missionaries and the people who ring my doorbell on Sundays !

:)


lol funnily enough I had a JW knock my door this morning


She kinda had her work cut out for her preaching to a Gay Buddhist Marxist :jumping: She kinda gave up when she said that all gays go to hell, to which I replied in that case that is where I would like to be ;) :jumping: :twisted:


I joke lol to be fair we had a nice chat about Buddhism and Christianity


With Christianity though, and Islam as well, they feel the need to try and save you from a future nightmare. It is an act of kindness, worry and concern (mostly) however they always seem to forget the free choice bit and keep pushing to sign up.


As I said Buddhism isnt like that, mostly because you need to see things yourself and realise things for yourself.

A Buddhist going up to a guy and saying "you need to believe that craving causes your suffering" is pretty pointless, as he hasnt known it for himself. The four noble truths, taken as dogmatic doctrine that is "believed in" ex credo is useless.

They are there as tools to use and reflect on and to see, not just to have faith in


And once again I've gone off on a tangent lol :soap: :zzz: :jumping:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Sati1
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Sati1 »

Thank you for your ideas - great suggestions! It is interesting to note how the Dhamma strikes people when they least expect it. If someone had told me about Buddhism and Dhamma two years ago, I would probably have dismissed them and turned away. Then when some life-events last year resulted in me seeking a way to train the mind, an acquaintance recommended meditation, and the rest is history... I'm glad the aquaintance mentioned meditation, but I'm also glad she didn't try to proselytize, since that would only have inhibited a welcoming encounter with Buddhism.

:anjali:
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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seeker242
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by seeker242 »

"In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

"In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
It depends. Would saying such things be beneficial for that particular person? If so, then you should say them, at the proper time. :smile:

Of course that all depends on the individual person you are talking to. What may be beneficial for one person may not be beneficial for another.
SarathW
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by SarathW »

Goenka said he is for converting human,

- Not from one organise religion to another organise religion
But
- from misery to happiness
- from bondage to freedom
- from cruelty to compassion


Revolutionary speech to United Nations by Vipassana Meditation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy9PugTy15M
:twothumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
arifinteh
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by arifinteh »

I THINK GOENKA MADE A VERY GOOD EXPLANATION ABOUT THIS. ITS NOT REALLY ABOUT THE RELIGION , BUT ITS ABOUT THE WAY OF LIFE. IT DOESN'T MATTER A BUDDHIST, A CHRISTIAN, A MOESLEM, OR A JEWISH. DHAMMA IS THE LAW OF NATURE, AND PEOPLE STILL COULD BELIEVE THEIR RELIGION BUT THEY CAN ALSO LEARN ABOUT DHAMMA BECAUSE ITS SUPPOSED TO BE UNIVERSAL. LAW OF NATURE IS UNIVERSAL TO EVERYONE. DUKKHA IS UNIVERSAL, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE WHEN IT COMES TO SUFFERING. BUT IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, ONLY TEACH TO THOSE WHO REALLY INTERESTED AND HAVE RESPECT.
suttametta
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by suttametta »

Sati1 wrote:Hello,

I have been struggling with this question recently, having been raised as a Christian, where it was often emphasized that one must try to convert non-believers. From the doctrine of kamma, I would think that there is no point in trying to "convert" someone, since their kamma might prevent them from understanding the teachings, no matter what one says. This idea makes sense from my own experience in talking about Dhamma to others. None of the 5 Precepts, or the 8-fold Path encourage trying to convert others. On the other hand, it seems like bringing someone to the Dhamma must be a tremendously compassionate and meritorious act. While it often seems easiest just to live my Buddhist faith in private, that also feels like a selfish strategy. Any thoughts on this? And does anybody have a citation from a sutta on this topic?

Many thanks
Explaining consequences to actions, impermanence, and conditionality to those who are suffering and can be helped is very helpful. These are facts not beliefs. So no one needs to convert formally.
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pilgrim
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by pilgrim »

The Buddha addresses this question directly. Note that the purpose is not to win converts or swell the number of believers.
Samyutta Nikaya 55.16

"Bhikkhus, those for whom you have compassion and who think you should be heeded
-whether friends or colleagues, relatives or kinsmen
-these you should exhort, settle, and establish in the four factors of stream-entry.
"What four?
You should exhort, settle, and establish them in confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus:
'The Blessed One is...an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.'

You should exhort, settle, and establish them in confirmed confidence in the Dhamma... thus:
'The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.'

You should exhort, settle, and establish them in confirmed confidence in the Sangha... thus:
'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is practising the good way, practising the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals -this Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.'

You should exhort, settle, and establish them in confirmed confidence in the in the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken, ... untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration.

"Those for whom you have compassion... and who think you should be heeded
-whether friends or colleagues, relatives or kinsmen
-these you should exhort, settle, and establish in the four factors of stream-entry."
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Ben
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Ben »

The only conversion is from ignorance to wisdom and it's the type of conversion that one can only do for oneself.
The best thing to do is to lead an exemplary life. A life informed by the Dhamma becomes a beacon for those searching to make an end of sufferng.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Aloka
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by Aloka »

Ben wrote:The only conversion is from ignorance to wisdom and it's the type of conversion that one can only do for oneself.
The best thing to do is to lead an exemplary life. A life informed by the Dhamma becomes a beacon for those searching to make an end of sufferng.
Well said, Ben !

:)
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manas
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Re: Should one try to convert non-Buddhists?

Post by manas »

I don't proselytize as Christians have put me off that for life, but I also sometimes feel like I've got this treasure - knowledge about the Dhamma that has truly helped me to have more peace and joy in life, and to be better able to deal with stress - and I just keep it all to myself, over the years learning more and more while others around me seem immersed in considerably more suffering due to not knowing those things. But yeah I agree with Ben, the best preaching is to speak and behave in an exemplary way, so that people will wonder "I wonder why he/she is always so serene?"
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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