SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

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SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:18 am

SN 1.72 SN i 41 <SN i 93> Ratha: Chariot
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/sn1.72/en

"What is the token of a chariot?
What, the token of a fire?
What is the token of a country?
What, the token of a woman?” [129]

“A standard is the token of a chariot;
Smoke, the token of a fire;
The king is a country’s token;
A husband, the token of a woman.”

Note

[129] Spk: A token is that by which something is discerned (paññāyati etenā ti paññāṇaṃ) A standard is the token of a chariot because a chariot, seen from a distance, is identified by its standard as belonging to such and such a king. A married woman, even the daughter of a universal monarch, is identified as Mrs. So-and-So; hence a husband is the token of a woman.
On the standard (dhaja) as the token of a chariot, see SN 11:3 and n. 611.

    There are three translations of SN 11.3 linked here: http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+11.3. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is:
    "Bhikkhus, once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. Then Sakka, lord of the devas, addressed the Tavatiṃsa devas thus: ‘Dear sirs, when the devas are engaged in battle, if fear or trepidation or terror should arise, on that occasion you should look up at the crest of my standard. For when you look up at the crest of my standard, whatever fear or trepidation or terror you may have will be abandoned.

    Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes discuss in detail the meaning of dahajagga. Briefly, a "standard", i.e. a pole surmounted by an emblem, carried as a military or royal symbol.
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Re: SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:13 pm

I don't want to be rude about the scriptures, but this looks to me like a bit of text which has parted company with its context - probably a very long time ago.
Anyone have a better idea?

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Re: SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:36 pm

It may be that the punchline has been lost. You can read the whole series from 1.71 to 1.81 here: http://suttacentral.net/sn1

In 1.71, which I posted a couple of weeks ago, there is a question from a Devata, and a reply from the Buddha that makes sense Dhammically: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20308
A couple of suttas later, in 1.74, there is a three-verse sutta, where a second Devata answers the question in worldly terms, then the Buddha answers in Dhammic terms: http://suttacentral.net/sn1.74/en
Perhaps the third verse of 1.72 got lost...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:47 pm

The last line is:
bhattā paññāṇamitthiyā”ti.
Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this as: A husband, the token of a woman.
The translation here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html is: Nourishments are the recognition of the woman.

The relevant page of the PTS dictionary is: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... li.1735314 which does have:
Bhattar [Vedic bhartṛ to bhṛ] a husband; nom. sg. bhattā Th 2, 413; J v.104, 260 (here in meaning "supporter"); vi.492; gen. bhattu J v.169, 170; acc. bhattāraŋ Th 2, 412.

whereas:
Bhatta (nt.) [cp. Epic & Class. Sk. bhakta, orig. pp. of bhajati] feeding, food, nourishment, meal ....

Someone knowledgeable might like to comment on whether there is some tricky play on words going on here...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 1.72 Ratha: Chariot

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:It may be that the punchline has been lost. You can read the whole series from 1.71 to 1.81 here: http://suttacentral.net/sn1

In 1.71, which I posted a couple of weeks ago, there is a question from a Devata, and a reply from the Buddha that makes sense Dhammically: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=20308
A couple of suttas later, in 1.74, there is a three-verse sutta, where a second Devata answers the question in worldly terms, then the Buddha answers in Dhammic terms: http://suttacentral.net/sn1.74/en
Perhaps the third verse of 1.72 got lost...

:anjali:
Mike

Thanks, Mike, that makes a lot more sense now (serves me right for not reading 1.71 :embarassed: ).
I read the whole group and didn't see any particular pattern to the number of verses. Mostly the individual suttas comprise one set of questions and one group of answers, set out as two or four verses depending on how many questions are asked.
1.74 is a bit of an exception but 1.72 would make more sense in the three-part structure you suggest since the single group of answers in the others is normally, as you say, dhammic rather than worldly.

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