Extremely good or extremely evil ? (Narcisism)

[dxm_dxm]

There is a question that is bothering me since long time ago. I am a narcissist but am what is called a "misanthropic", "religious" narcissist. Ever since I was little I did a trillion more good deeds that people around me because of this disease. As some narcissist have antisocial characteristics and aspire to be the anti-christ, some narcissist aspire to be an angel, the best person that ever walked the earth. Almost all the shocking good deeds done in humanity were done by grandiose narcissist because we do not do it for free. A narcissist does not care about anything else except narcissistic supply and the pleasure derived from feeling "an angel between scammers" is bigger than the money+effort needed to do the good deed.

On the other side I almost never did a good deed because of compassion. I have no emotions, I can not feel bad for somebody for real. I only calculate mathematically if a good deed should be done, if the money/time is used efficiently helping that person, I see all good deeds as investments. I only did the second kind of good deeds mentioned in budhism - "good deeds done because of beliving in a further reward, this life or the next".

Besides that, there is a huge amount of damage that I do unconciously to everybody around me because of narcissism. I am refering here to the psichological destruction a narcissist causes to all the people around him. I do not feel too bad about this because narcissist are like tornadoes or floods in this aspect, we do not do this willingly.

Although my narcissism has cured at least 20% in just a year of meditation or so I steel do not really desire to get rid of it. A narc is kind of a double personality only that it goes this way: there existed a "true self" of the narcissist in childhood, then a false omnipotent, omniscient etc. self was created and now only the false self exist, there is no "true self" left to come back to. This false self that I am makes me almost invulnerable to anything that causes harm and makes me feel like on cocain many times in a day so it is hard for me to renounce it. A narcissist invested all his life in his false self, it is the biggest investment that he ever made so it is hard to quit. I also calculated mathematically that I should make it disappear and besides that, although it is very counter intuitive for me now I know that without narcissism it is not that terrifing to live as narcs expect it to be because I already experienced very small periods of time without narcissism thanks to meditation and it's not something that scares me anymore.

The thing that disgust me sometimes about this condition is that extreme cruelty sometimes amuse me and that I do not feel that I will be consistent in my doing of good deeds forever. The only thing that makes me be a good person is logic, I am convinced intelectually of that. I could be the most gruesome and most efficient prison guard torturer if sometimes in the future, this life or more probably another, I will be convinced intelectually otherwise or not have the avaliable information to get to belive that been good is right. I am a robot in human body.

Therefore... although it's something hard to quantify and analise, I would like to see some opinions on this condition through other buddhist eyes than mine, because I may be biased.


Edit - interesting fact : I only feel compassion 2-3 times a year for about a second. This happens when I see people with handicaps because I also have OCD and my obsession was (now cured almost completelly an shockingly fast thanks to meditation) physical handicaps. This is how I know what compassion feels like. I feel the same emotion at bigger intensity for the whole duration of doing metta meditation. I do not know if this is normal or only happens to narcissists who never experienced emotions and overestimate this. It is quite strange for me to experience compassion for 30 min streight when I only felt this for like 1 minute my whole life combined. I am quite surprised this is a pleasant feeling like a drug. My face is acting like crying hysterically for the whole duration of metta but with no tears. Another great thing I love about metta is that I first do it on myself and that's the only time I feel compassion for me. Although a narc officialy belives, and convinces himself to belive that he is a wounderfull person deep down he belives he is fake, evil, not doing all the good deeds/investments lol that he should etc.

[James the Giant]

Wow, freaky stuff. Interesting, and it makes me glad to be me, with my much smaller problems!

Keep in mind your next life, if you consider such a thing possible.
You probably won't be a narcissist in your next life, and what you do in this life will help determine your next.
So take kamma into account when mathematically calculating your actions. As well as leading to a good rebirth, it could also assist here-and-now in preventing being evil and damaging the people around you.

Hardcore, dude.
Best wishes.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

@dxm_dxm, have you actually been psychologically diagnosed by a behavioural therapist, as actually officially having this condition?

[culaavuso]

On the other side I almost never did a good deed because of compassion. I have no emotions, I can not feel bad for somebody for real. I only calculate mathematically if a good deed should be done, if the money/time is used efficiently helping that person, I see all good deeds as investments. I only did the second kind of good deeds mentioned in budhism - "good deeds done because of beliving in a further reward, this life or the next".

Besides that, there is a huge amount of damage that I do unconciously to everybody around me because of narcissism. I am refering here to the psichological destruction a narcissist causes to all the people around him. I do not feel too bad about this because narcissist are like tornadoes or floods in this aspect, we do not do this willingly.

It might be useful to try calculating the value of developing good will, compassion, and sympathetic joy so that they are felt regularly, when meditating and when not.

It might be useful to try calculating the value of caring about the people around you and acting on that understanding as compared to making excuses for harmful behavior.

It might be useful to try calculating the value of acting based on feelings of good will, compassion, and sympathetic joy instead of acting based on mathematical calculations.

It might be useful to try calculating the value of developing skillful feelings and wise intentions rather than simply focusing on investments of time and money.

To see how different kinds of investments might pay off in the long run, it might be interesting to read through AN 7.49: Dana Sutta. Good deeds as you point out are gifts of time and/or money, so it could be helpful for your calculations to understand what gifts yield greater and lesser rewards.

[binocular]

Therefore... although it's something hard to quantify and analise, I would like to see some opinions on this condition through other buddhist eyes than mine, because I may be biased.

"Narcissism" as you use it here and the characteristics you associate with narcissism are specific to a layer of Western culture and society.
By defining yourself as a "narcissist" in that way, you are effectively giving Western culture and society the authority over your definition of yourself.
As a Buddhist, should you do that ...?

[dxm_dxm]

Thanks for the replies guys and for the Danna Sutta. Was hoping for something to cheer me up. The thing is I use the same intelectual motives mentioned there, at least half of them to some extent, even the most noble one. But the thing is, I do this exclusevly because of intelectual motives, there is no compassion involved. I read a sutta witch said that there are 3 kinds of good deeds. 1. done out of compassion, 2. done because of beliving in a further reward, 3. done to impress.

"Narcissism" as you use it here and the characteristics you associate with narcissism are specific to a layer of Western culture and society.
By defining yourself as a "narcissist" in that way, you are effectively giving Western culture and society the authority over your definition of yourself.
As a Buddhist, should you do that ...?

All people are like cars. Most are made of 3-4 cars combined + elements from other cars. The "normal" cars you see on the street are something like 10% histrionic, 10% paranoid, 10% schizoid etc. There are also cars witch are 99% made of the same material, a thing witch comes with advantages and disadvantages. This is why narcissism, psichopathy, etc. are not considered mental ilnesses but "personality disorders". Therefore I am not ashamed to wear this lable, all people on this earth are in the same situation only that they are hard to lable because of 10%-12%-20%.... etc personality composition not to mention the label would serve at nothing. Without this lable existing I would have never got to know so much about myself and how to improve me. I was extremelly happy to find that the way that I am built is already labeled and has all the instructions needed to make me a more effective machine, unlike 10-12-20%... etc. people (normal people) can say.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

All people are like cars. Most are made of 3-4 cars combined + elements from other cars.

Not so.
your analogy is completely flawed. Ask any mechanic; you cannot transpose components from one make of vehicle, into another. It can't be done, the car will simply not work. Car manufacturers do not make components that you can generalise and use in any car you want. Even something as basic as spark-plugs differs from car to car...

The "normal" cars you see on the street are something like 10% histrionic, 10% paranoid, 10% schizoid etc. There are also cars witch are 99% made of the same material, a thing witch comes with advantages and disadvantages.

Again, this thinking is completely flawed and your analogy does not work....

This is why narcissism, psichopathy, etc. are not considered mental ilnesses but "personality disorders". Therefore I am not ashamed to wear this lable, all people on this earth are in the same situation only that they are hard to lable because of 10%-12%-20%....

No, they're hard to 'label' because they have not had a psychiatric evaluation, and therefore cannot be said to have either a mental illness, OR a personality disorder....

etc personality composition not to mention the label would serve at nothing. Without this lable existing I would have never got to know so much about myself and how to improve me. I was extremelly happy to find that the way that I am built is already labeled and has all the instructions needed to make me a more effective machine, unlike 10-12-20%... etc. people (normal people) can say.

These people have not been 'labelled'.
You are doing the labelling.

And if one wishes to be pedantic, any descriptive word is just a label; right down to words like 'mother', 'father', musician, electrician, woman, man, girl, boy, doctor, or motor mechanic.

They're just labels.
Everything is a label.
Even 'TheNoBSBuddhist' is just a label.....

We have to categorise everything for ease of identification.... but to begin dividing the population into different 'personality disorders is taking a huge leap and is extremely presumptuous....

In my opinion.

[dxm_dxm]

Not so.
your analogy is completely flawed. Ask any mechanic; you cannot transpose components from one make of vehicle, into another. It can't be done, the car will simply not work. Car manufacturers do not make components that you can generalise and use in any car you want. Even something as basic as spark-plugs differs from car to car...

I could not find a better analogy. Of course there are no 10% volvo 10% dacia 13% mercedes etc. but every human personality is made out of the 10 personality models and when somebody is made almost entirely of one personality model then it is called narcissist/histrionic/schizoid/avoidant etc. personality disorder. This is the reason why they were taken out of the DSM this year. Also, these personality disorders are all incurable, because they are not illnesses, it's simply the way that you are only with a lable put on it, like saying that you are white, black, hispanic.

No, they're hard to 'label' because they have not had a psychiatric evaluation, and therefore cannot be said to have either a mental illness, OR a personality disorder...

Almost no narcissist had a psichiatric evaluation and except you americans people do not go to the shrink if their cactus died lol. In the courner of the world I am living in it costs about 1000$ to get diagnosed with this and 3000$ to become a licensed shrink with not a single hour spent at the collage and legaly diagnose myself lol. Why would any rational guy pay 1000$ (85% people here make 250$ a month) to get legally diagnosed with an incurable disease ? It is a well known fact all personality disorders are incurable as I said above and that many shrinks pretend to be able to cure them and even prescribe medication, something that the big experts on narcissism are all complaining about.

And if one wishes to be pedantic, any descriptive word is just a label; right down to words like 'mother', 'father', musician, electrician, woman, man, girl, boy, doctor, or motor mechanic.

They're just labels.
Everything is a label.
Even 'TheNoBSBuddhist' is just a label.....

We have to categorise everything for ease of identification.... but to begin dividing the population into different 'personality disorders is taking a huge leap and is extremely presumptuous...

I was just about to explain that what I mean by label is exactly what you said above. The lable "narcissist" stands for somebody who presents a patern of specific characteristics, not a legally diagnose.

[quote but to begin dividing the population into different 'personality disorders is taking a huge leap and is extremely presumptuous.... ][/quote]
If you go through all the personality testing in the world, the answers you will get will be 10% than, 15% that, 22% that etc. If you talk a lot you that, if you talk a little you are that etc. The dangers you think might come from this are only true for america, a country witch has commercials for antidepressants on tv lol. Even in my corrupt eastern european country a shrink can prescribe medication only after at least half a year of consultations and they are very, very reluctant to do that. Also, few people accept taking them, people are more reluctant than shrinks to this and I am talking here about severe cases of depression. Medication for NPD over here is probably even legally impossible.

[Dan74]

Hi dxm_dxm

You say that narcicism is incurable like being white or black, but then you also say that you've experienced a tremendous change after a fairly short time practicing. So which is it?

From my experience I can see that some things about our psyche are much harder to change than others, but I really doubt there is something truly unchangeable. Maybe very hard to change but you say yourself the narcissistic self is like a drug and one doesn't want to let it go. So there is a possibility if one truly wants to.

I found your post very interesting in that you appear to have quite a lot of clarity and insight into your psyche. You also have the Dhamma. Together these are formidable tools that make radical change possible as long as there great determination. I hope that for your sake and for the sake of people around you, you find it!

[dxm_dxm]

Hi dxm_dxm

You say that narcicism is incurable like being white or black, but then you also say that you've experienced a tremendous change after a fairly short time practicing. So which is it?

Good question. I said that narcissism is officially incurable and the people that cured it are considered exceptions. I can guarantee that I changed at least 20% (and I am using all my false modesty posible when posting this percent) and that is why I am doing my best to make this scientifically proven and get to be used for this. The way I am gona do this is by submiting to all psichiatric evaluations in the world and then come after 3 years with no narcissistic traits in me to prove it works. I expect that in just 1 year I could get to have the level of narcissistic traits in me a normal person has. After convincing the researcher I will fund any research that he want's with all the volunteers that he want's if the research has a good method and will prove with no doubt that meditation works. A research like this has very small costs anyway. I will also let the researcher take all the credit because the research will take place if I get cured of narc, so I will not care about the credit at that time anyway. At the moment I am waiting (probably in vain) from a response from Sam Vaknin, I want to let him take the credit for this because I found out about narc from him and because been a narc he will be the most happy out of all researchers doing this and his publicity might help fasten things up. If he won't respond, in a month I am gona go to the best romanian shrink I can find and let him take the credit. The point of meditation is to destroy the ego. I am surprised researchers did not try to apply this in treating persons with bigger than life egos.

but I really doubt there is something truly unchangeable.

Exactlly. There is no case of something unchangeble been observed in our universe untill today.



For people who would like to see how I was before meditation I suggest reading my first posts in this forum, especially the topic about buddhism and poker lol if you want to see the classic narcissist internet troll in search of narcissistic supply. That topic was made purelly for narcissistic supply, the ideea been subtly bragging about my poker skills/money/been a great person etc. I had absolutaly no other motive for that thread and any of my threads at that time except narcissistic supply. This is what narcs do on the internet and are well known for been intenet trolls. As a side note, this forum is the most depleaded of narcissistic supply place that I have ever seen in my life. People just won't give it to you here, these traits are not admired. (click on nickname, my posts, the first topic made)

I found your post very interesting in that you appear to have quite a lot of clarity and insight into your psyche.

There is a guy, Sam Vaknin (the guy we know almost all we know about narcissism) witch has at least 10 times more awarness of his condition. A narcissist becoming aware of his narcissism does not change a dime. Vaknin is the perfect example for this. A robot that knows he is a robot, is still a robot sadly.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Not so.
your analogy is completely flawed. Ask any mechanic; you cannot transpose components from one make of vehicle, into another. It can't be done, the car will simply not work. Car manufacturers do not make components that you can generalise and use in any car you want. Even something as basic as spark-plugs differs from car to car...

I could not find a better analogy.

Well then, don't make one. It's not necessary....

Of course there are no 10% volvo 10% dacia 13% mercedes etc. but every human personality is made out of the 10 personality models and when somebody is made almost entirely of one personality model then it is called narcissist/histrionic/schizoid/avoidant etc. personality disorder. This is the reason why they were taken out of the DSM this year. Also, these personality disorders are all incurable, because they are not illnesses, it's simply the way that you are only with a lable put on it, like saying that you are white, black, hispanic.

Being white, black or Hispanic is a label, but these are identities, and clearly not a personality disorder.
Personality disorders need not be cured, but many can be - and are - managed through the careful prescription and administration of certain medicines, be they pharmaceutical, be they complementary.

No, they're hard to 'label' because they have not had a psychiatric evaluation, and therefore cannot be said to have either a mental illness, OR a personality disorder...

Almost no narcissist had a psichiatric evaluation and except you americans people do not go to the shrink if their cactus died lol.

Another liberal assumption. And quite a rude one at that, if I may say so....
Where do you get the impression that it's 'you americans'....? There are people on this forum from many countries and of different nationalities.
I for one, am a Scot.

In the courner of the world I am living in it costs about 1000$ to get diagnosed with this and 3000$ to become a licensed shrink with not a single hour spent at the collage and legaly diagnose myself lol. Why would any rational guy pay 1000$ (85% people here make 250$ a month) to get legally diagnosed with an incurable disease ?

As you have taken great pains to point out, incurable they may be. But as I have indicated , they can be managed, and controlled, and very successfully too, I may add....

It is a well known fact all personality disorders are incurable as I said above and that many shrinks pretend to be able to cure them and even prescribe medication, something that the big experts on narcissism are all complaining about.

Please give reliable statistics, references and credible links to support your statements (I have underlined in your quote). It is irresponsible to make such sweeping statements and expect them to go unchallenged. In addition to which, you cannot make such statements and NOT provide evidence to support them; the burden of proof is on you.

[quote but to begin dividing the population into different 'personality disorders is taking a huge leap and is extremely presumptuous.... ]

If you go through all the personality testing in the world, the answers you will get will be 10% than, 15% that, 22% that etc. [/quote]I'm sure, backing it up with a link to verifiable data. Thanks....

......The dangers you think might come from this are only true for america, a country witch has commercials for antidepressants on tv lol.

There's nothing wrong with advertising certain drugs and remedies on TV. That's how you get the message through to people that help, if it is required, is at hand. Here in the UK, television regularly carries advertisements for analgesics, localised pain management, digestive medication, dental products and even incontinence.

Even in my corrupt eastern european country a shrink can prescribe medication only after at least half a year of consultations and they are very, very reluctant to do that.

That's a rather disparaging and damning description of the country you live in, not to mention a very dismissive term for someone who has worked and studied hard to qualify in a specific field of medicine....... Maybe they're reluctant because they realise pharmaceutical companies are corrupt and are only in it for the money, and they don't want to line the big fat-cats' pockets unnecessarily....

Also, few people accept taking them, people are more reluctant than shrinks to this and I am talking here about severe cases of depression. Medication for NPD over here is probably even legally impossible.

That's not a problem with either the drugs or the people then. That's a problem with the system.
Simply because this is the case, doesn't make it either commendable, or correct, I'm sure you'll agree.....

[lyndon taylor]

I sorta buy the buddhist part, but no BS??? I'm not buying that......

You're perfectly able to make responses like this on this forum, however when you introduce yourself as the "no BS buddhist" it kind of means you have to function on a slightly higher standard, ie NO BS!!! perhaps a name change is in order......

PS I've never heard of there being any medication for narcissism, or it being classified as a psychological illness, either.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

You and me both. I'm merely going by the OP's assessments.

I would classify 'personality disorders' as Bipolar, schizophrenia, mania, phobia.... but Narcissism?

No, I agree.
To call it a personality disorder is not really accurate at all.

It's more of a psychological trait - and one which CAN most certainly be addressed through therapy and counselling.
Perhaps there may be medications which can assist with the establishment of a more balanced mind-set, in these circumstances, but these would not be medications prescribed specifically to deal with 'Narcissism'.

That better?

[Aloka]

I'm merely going by the OP's assessments

"dxm" is a recreational drug, by the way.

...DXM is also used recreationally. When exceeding label-specified maximum dosages, dextromethorphan acts as a dissociative hallucinogen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextromethorphan

See also this previous thread:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 35#p146335


.

[lyndon taylor]

Hate to admit it but way back when I had some experience drinking whole bottles of horrible tasting Robitussin DM, dextromethorphan is basically a synthetic form of morphine, and has very similar effect in high dose to codeine or even heroin, on top of the narcotic DXM the cough syrup also contains an amphetamine and a barbiturate.