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No affection? At all? Period? - Dhamma Wheel

No affection? At all? Period?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kasina
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No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:56 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:17 pm

:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, may be why....

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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:31 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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James the Giant
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby James the Giant » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:42 pm

You can hug her, it's not a rule laid down by the buddha, it's a rule made up by monks hundreds of years later, EDIT: this is WRONG. Oops! Bhukkh Pesala has corrected me and says this rule is not commentarial, but is in the actual vinaya text. and probably based on the sexist rules of the brahmins.
Even if it had been a rule made by the buddha, it's a dukkata, which is fixed by a simple 3 minute confession ceremony that you'll be doing twice a month anyway.
When you become a monk, be sure to read the vinaya carefully, and see what are the buddha's rules, and what are the commentarial things added later. EDIT: It looks like I need to do this myself! Apologies.
Last edited by James the Giant on Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

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Kasina
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:57 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

Coyote
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Location: Wales - UK

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Coyote » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:58 pm

I have read that in some monasteries (abhayagiri I think) for western monks hugging parents is overlooked, given that it is not one of the 227 rules, but a tradition. I am not a vinaya expert, but it seems that if there is no lust, there is no offence.
Personally, if I worried that much about what my parents thought, I would seriously consider my desire to ordain. In fact, I decided not to for the time being for those reasons (among other things).

I wonder if anyone knows what things are like at Ven. Thanissaro's monastery. I only asked because he includes the commentary rules in his "Buddhist monastic code".
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:07 pm

:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, may be why....

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Kasina
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:09 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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Anagarika
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Anagarika » Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:10 pm


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:14 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Anagarika
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Anagarika » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:32 pm

I'm in favor of strict Vinaya adherence, but I have to wonder if the rule as stated above by Bhante can be circumvented by the Bhikkhu, who wishes to maintain the "hugging" connection with, say, his Mother, then instructs her that she may reach out to hug him, but not that he may hug her. Mom gets her hugs at will, and the Bhikkhu maintains this connection with his beloved Mother.

I wonder if this rule developed out of a concern, more than any other, that someone in the community would see a Bhikkhu hugging a woman, and believe something romantic or sexual was taking place. To rule out even the appearance of impropriety, the rule was established.

I can only imagine that there are some very solid Vinaya monks who still, while in a private home secluded from others, give their Mothers a hug. Going forth entails giving up so much, and with ( at least in the Thai tradition) the reverence that is paid to parents, that this is one area where some discretion can be applied, and maintain the Vinaya in the spirit, if not letter, of the rule.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:12 pm

Lust, craving, greed, and affection are hard to remove. Only a Non-returner is entirely free from lust.

No Affection at all is ideal. The Chapter on in the Dhammapada.

Do not confuse affection with loving-kindness. The first is unwholesome (akusala), the second is wholesome (kusala). Distinguishing the two is not at all easy either. If it hurts to let go, and to abide detached, then attachment is still present.

To abide detached does not mean dwelling in aversion either. In the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta it repeats in many paragraphs: Vineyya loke abhijjhā domanassaṃ — free from covetousness and grief concerning the world.
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Kasina
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:39 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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Kasina
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:35 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:40 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:22 pm

The standards at the monastery where you ordain should be followed. After ordination you will receive instructions about the proper conduct around relatives. I recommend putting some distance between yourself and family after ordination. Write about twice a year to let them know that you're alive and well, and if you're not you can ask them for medicine. That's enough, unless they ask about the Dhamma, then you can write more often, and in more detail.

My personal attitudes are irrelevant to this issue, but we never did do hugs in my family — at least not since my young childhood. My father is dead, and my mother is in a care home with dementia. I am not sure if she even recognised me at my father's funeral. My sister writes occasionally, my brother sometimes sends an email, or I occasionally call to manage some business. None of my family are Buddhists, or interested in Buddhism. My brother is an active Christian, but other family members have no interest in religion AFAIK. It's not something they ever talk about.

It's worth noting that fondling the children of supporters is one of the actions included in "Corrupting families."

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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Kasina
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:38 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

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seeker242
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby seeker242 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:59 pm

IMO, leaving home means...leaving home, either you do or you don't. I don't think there is a middle ground IMO

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Kasina
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby Kasina » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:06 pm

"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

User avatar
James the Giant
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby James the Giant » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:47 am

Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.

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waterchan
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Location: Kamaloka

Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Postby waterchan » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:05 am

Maybe it's a good idea to consider ordaining when it's clear that your family more or less doesn't need you any more?

If one has doubts regarding one's ability to strictly follow the Vinaya due to familial attachments, it might be a good idea to postpone ordination until those attachments have weakened. Unless you have children, the time will surely come when your parents leave you or grow ill enough to not remember you.

We can still rise pretty high through the "ranks" of the Dhamma as a layperson.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)


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