Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Pannapetar
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
Contact:

Re: Is everything already determined?

Post by Pannapetar »

Mawkish1983 wrote:Well I've leave the philosophical interpretations to the philosophers.
These are not -strictly speaking- philosophical interpretations, but different interpretations within physics. Please have a look at this wonderful Wikipedia entry that lists the various interpretations. Physicists are themselves divided on the question whether the physical universe is ultimately deterministic or not. As things stand now, the majority seems to think that nature is indeterministic.
Mawkish1983 wrote:Heisenburg's uncertainty principal, however, is clear; the exact position and the exact momentum of a particle cannot be simultaneously known.
Yes, but even the Uncertainty Principle can be interpreted in two ways, namely that (a) it describes a property of nature, or (b) that it describes only the limitation of the interaction between nature and an observer. It is not -in the strict sense- proof for an indeterministic universe. For example, Einstein followed the second thought when he introduced the concept of hidden variables.

I am playing devil's advocate here, because the indeterministic interpretation is in fact much more plausible to me, but it is important to make the above distinction, namely that QM strongly suggests indeterminism, but ultimately cannot prove it. BTW, chaotic systems, or respectively nonlinear dynamical systems, which you also mentioned, are 100% deterministic, but computationally complex and therefore intractable. Philosophically, this means that chaotic systems don't suggest indeterminism but that they are not computable and therefore not predictable.

Cheers, Thomas
kannada
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:35 am

Re: Is everything already determined?

Post by kannada »

Does the big bang mean that everything is already determined?
I believe the 'Big Bang' theory to be flawed from the outset. If the big bang is supposed to be the source of both space and time, what did the universe expand into?

Also, if nothing existed at the point of this 'big bang' there wasn't anything to be pre-determined...

k
Just a view - nothing more...
User avatar
adosa
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Is everything already determined?

Post by adosa »

Determinism by its very nature denies the Law of Kamma. The universe might be predetermined without this thing we call "mind".....especially the human mind. We have the ability to make choices. Once we make a choice to do this or do that we set of a chain of events that impacts the entire universe. In nutshell Dependent Origination. Maybe perceptively to us, maybe not, but nonetheless the course of events has veered from a predetermined course. Fortunately.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
Lombardi4
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Is the future predetermined

Post by Lombardi4 »

There is the prediction of Dipankara Buddha that Gautama (then Sumedha) would become a Buddha, and even predicted Gautama's chief diciples. There is the prediction of Kondanna when Gotama was a baby that he would become an Enlightened person rather than a Cakkavattin. There is the prediction about Metteyya. There is the prediction that King Ajjatasattu, after his stay in hell would become a pacekkabuddha, same for Devadatta.

So does this mean that the future is predetermined/predictable/knowable? Or just some of it?

Yet, If I look back at my own life, I can see that I could have made other choices and decisions than the ones I did, which would have led to totally different outcomes. So this makes me a strong believer in that the future cannot possibly be predictable, and that it is not predetermined.

Any thoughts?
Last edited by Lombardi4 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by DNS »

The recent movie, Knowing followed the idea that possibly everything is pre-determined. It was pretty good and entertaining and some good discussions on determinism and free will.

I think like you do, that not everything is pre-determined. Certainly many people are pretty predictable, such as those who make little progress and conversely, some like the Bodhisatta, who have made much merit. For those, their futures are probably easy to see if you are an arahant or sammasambuddha. But for those in the middle, I think there is some mix where there can be some choice and volition.
Lombardi4
Posts: 1551
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:53 pm

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Lombardi4 »

TheDhamma wrote:The recent movie, Knowing followed the idea that possibly everything is pre-determined. It was pretty good and entertaining and some good discussions on determinism and free will.

I think like you do, that not everything is pre-determined. Certainly many people are pretty predictable, such as those who make little progress and conversely, some like the Bodhisatta, who have made much merit. For those, their futures are probably easy to see if you are an arahant or sammasambuddha. But for those in the middle, I think there is some mix where there can be some choice and volition.
Thanks! Interesting view.
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Jechbi »

Stefan wrote:Any thoughts?
I think the only practical way to understand this question is with regard to oneself. In which case, the question also includes some assumption about an imagined future situation one might face. And fundamentally, the question is: Does it make any difference what I do right now in this moment?

To which the answer is an emphatic yes. It makes a difference what you do right now in this moment. The underlying question is not so much whether the future is predetermined, but rather whether you are an automaton right now in this present moment. It's fundamentally a question about self-identity.

Here's one approach to the question: There's a way to the cessation of dukkha. What is that way? And regardless of whatever self-identity view one holds, does that change the task at hand?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Modus.Ponens »

I think the future is completely predetermined. I think the universe is a like a machine, moved by the laws of physics. Knowing all the initial conditions of the universe and its laws we can predict everything. It is our inability to know all initial (or present) conditions that produces the ilusion that some things are random or not predetermined. Subjectively we have the feeling of free will but objectively, we don't have that free will. But since we live in our subjective mental world free will is real for us and thus we create karma and so on. This is my opinion.

Metta
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

If everything were pre-determined, would the Buddha have bothered teaching for 45 years and finished with "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

Pre-determination renders any spiritual pursuit meaningless.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Guy
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 4:05 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Guy »

Hello Stefan and All,

Quite a tricky question indeed...

On one level I believe the will has been conditioned by various factors including culture, brain chemistry and physics. We may feel like we are making choices but perhaps that feeling of choice has been conditioned also.

On another level, I believe that there is a possibility to "transcend" the will and the conditioned world through the Jhanas and the Immaterial States. This is a matter of faith since I have not yet entered Second Jhana where the will has supposedly ceased.

However, when we look at the issue from a moral perspective I believe the most pragmatic approach is to believe that we do make choices, otherwise we might fall into the trap of blaming the world for our moral wrongdoings and making no effort to become better people.

Maybe we have no choice other than to make an effort to become better people?

I simply don't know conclusively. I think this is one of those things which is perhaps better to put to one side and maybe if/when we reach nibbana it will all become apparent.

With Metta,

Guy
Last edited by Guy on Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Ceisiwr »

I brought this up recently, mawkish has something interesting to say, that quantum mechanics does away with ideas of determinism or predeterminism (he could probably expand more)



metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Modus.Ponens »

clw_uk wrote:I brought this up recently, mawkish has something interesting to say, that quantum mechanics does away with ideas of determinism or predeterminism (he could probably expand more)



metta
Hi clw_uk

Regular quantum mechanics destroys the notion of causality and establishes a probabilistic paradigm. However there is a modern theory that reproduces the results of QM but mantains causality. I prefer to believe the modern theory.

Metta
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
adosa
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by adosa »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

If everything were pre-determined, would the Buddha have bothered teaching for 45 years and finished with "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

Pre-determination renders any spiritual pursuit meaningless.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Right. And isn't pre-determination one of the wrong views the Buddha warned about?

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by acinteyyo »

The Buddha said:
But, Udāyi, let be the past, let be the future, I shall set you forth the Teaching: When there is this this is, with arising of this this arises; when there is not this this is not, with cessation of this this ceases. (Majjhima VIII,9 <M.II,32>)
all conditioned phenomena are determined but not pre-determined! it is said: "with arising of this this arises, with cessation of this this ceases" and not "with cessation of this, this arises". determinism is wrong view, unfortunately I don't know the Sutta exactly but I think it was DN 1.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Is the future predetermined

Post by Individual »

Stefan wrote:There is the prediction of Dipankara Buddha that Gautama (then Sumedha) would become a Buddha, and even predicted Gautama's chief diciples. There is the prediction of Kondanna when Gotama was a baby that he would become an Enlightened person rather than a Cakkavattin. There is the prediction about Metteyya. There is the prediction that King Ajjatasattu, after his stay in hell would become a pacekkabuddha, same for Devadatta.

So does this mean that the future is predetermined/predictable/knowable? Or just some of it?

Yet, If I look back at my own life, I can see that I could have made other choices and decisions than the ones I did, which would have led to totally different outcomes. So this makes me a strong believer in that the future cannot possibly be predictable, and that it is not predetermined.

Any thoughts?
The future will unfold as it can be expected to if we do nothing to stop it. Often, we might think we have resolved on changing our actions, only to find later that we falter again, as we have a hundred times in the past.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Post Reply