Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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happylotus1
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by happylotus1 »

In my case, parent have given the verbal permission (although reluctantly) to join monastic discipline if I wanted.
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by Ananda26 »

happylotus1 wrote:In my case, parent have given the verbal permission (although reluctantly) to join monastic discipline if I wanted.
It may be a very good idea to invite your parents to some Buddhist Community Activities so that they can see how to fit in nicely with the Buddhist Community.
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happylotus1
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by happylotus1 »

Found one interesting quote from accesstoinsight
"There are two goals, the holy goal and the unholy goal. But what is the unholy goal? One, himself subject to birth, seeks what also is subject to birth; himself subject to old age, to sickness, to death, to pain, to defilement seeks what also is subject to old age, to sickness, to death, to pain, to defilement. But what is subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain and defilement? Wife and child are subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain and defilement; servant and maid, lamb and goat... gold and silver are subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain and defilement. Subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain, to defilement are these things. And allured, blinded, enchanted a man himself subject to birth, to old age, to sickness, to death, to pain to defilement seeks what also is subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, to pain, to defilement! This is the unholy goal. But what is the holy goal?

"One himself subject to birth, perceiving the misery of this law of nature, seeks that which is free from birth: the incomparable surety of Nibbana; subject to old age, to sickness, to death, to pain, to defilement perceiving the misery of this law of nature, seeks that which is free from old age, sickness, death, pain and defilement the incomparable surety of Nibbana. This is the holy goal.

"Formerly, when but a Bodhisatta, myself subject to birth, I sought what also was subject to birth; myself subject to old age, sickness, death, pain, defilement, sought what also was subject to old age, sickness, death, pain, defilement. And it occurred to me as follows: 'Why, myself subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain, defilement, do I seek what also is subject to birth, old age, sickness, death, pain, defilement? What, if now, myself subject to birth, perceiving the misery of this law of nature, I were to seek the incomparable surety of Nibbana free from birth: myself subject to old age, sickness, death, pain defilement perceiving the misery of this law of nature, I were to seek the incomparable surety of Nibbana free from old age, sickness, death, pain, defilement? And after a time while still young, with coal-black hair, possessed of radiant youth, in the prime of my life, against the wish of my weeping and wailing parents, I had my hair and beard shaved off, put on the yellow robe, and went forth from the household life to the houseless one..."
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by indian_buddhist »

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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by indian_buddhist »

Ok so the decision to Ordination in your case........If you seen the 4 Noble Truths after you had already married then I could have understood you. But you had known his teachings before. I can only tell you my case. I am not interested to marry now knowing the 4 Noble truths. Now my decision is not to look for marriage......Meaning I am not at all looking any more.

If at all marriage is forced upon me then i will give up being a Monk in this life.

Everyone cannot compare their life to historical Buddha. The Historical Buddha is justified to leave behind his wife and child, Parents because someone had to discover the lost path. Someone had to show the way which everyone else can later follow.

You personally do not have such lofty goals. The path is already known. Surely following the path is not that difficult after we already know the path. How justified are you to leave behind your wife just to follow his path.........Thats a Moral decision you yourself have to decide. The Buddha's teaching will help you decide that better.

Yes i know that you are not craving for attachment towards your wife but does your wife think about it in the same way?. She had married you expecting that you will take care of her in her entire life.

Oh and no matter what anybody will tell you, Having Sex once in a while with your legally wedded wife is not wrong at all. It is only when you are obsessed about Sex and think about Sex all the time then it is completely wrong.

Anyway (its only my personal opinion) ......Unless you are in great physical danger by following the path or you do not have the means to survive (meaning you have no access to Food/clothing/home) etc where it will be difficult to just survive day to day means then you are justified in becoming a Monk.

My personal opinion is that apart from these 2 above reasons , the Buddha's path can be also followed by being a Layman.

By being a Monk how will experience the different facets of Suffering in entirety?. Suffering (the First Noble truth) has to be understood in its entirety to follow the path. I am not sure by being a Monk you can understand Suffering that well.

Oh and about craving, I think I already come far off from Food/ambition/Women and this has happened by being a Layman. Every person is different though. My only opinion is that Ordination is not absolutely necessary.
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by indian_buddhist »

Goofaholix wrote:If you read your text you are using words like desire, inclination, discontent. These kinds of emotional pulls probably have craving, aversion, and delusion at their root.

While the desire to awaken is always a wholesome thing, I don't think the desire to be a monk is always necessarily so. It's often fueled by aversion to one's current situation and the belief that the grass is greener on the other side, so aversion and craving. You may find once you get to the other side you might start to feel the grass is greener back where you came from.

.
I think he has beautifully put it.........Some people become Monk for ridiculous reasons......Noone should become a Monk to Escape the rigours of life. The Buddha's path is not to give up Suffering, but to use it to develop Wisdom.

And Wisdom (my opinion again) can be also gained by living a Layman life.
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

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Re: monks the only ones capable of attaining Arahant ?
Postby happylotus1 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:31 am

There are few instances mentioned in sutta where lay persons became arahant in the Buddha's time. One example I can remember is that of a minister who became arahant in lay cloth. However, after becoming arahant one cannot remain in lay life. Either they take pabbaja or they die due to their natural death. But as compared to thousands of monks who achieved arahanthood, the number of laypeople attaining arhanthood was very few which indicates that although it is possible to attain arahanthood in lay life, it is extremely rare.
Being in layperson and practicing dhamma is wonderful. But it is more wonderful to become a monk if we can get such opportunity. Buddha as I understood, praises highly for the monk-hood with right intention. The above quote reflects a reality that a household path is a dusty path as compared to that of a monk-hood. Monk-hood gives us a suitable environment where we can practice sense restraints and higher morality that results in better pace of Dhamma growth as compared to householder which has very limited opportunity of sense restraints and higher morality (such as 227 precepts).
Noone should become a Monk to Escape the rigours of life. The Buddha's path is not to give up Suffering, but to use it to develop Wisdom. And Wisdom (my opinion again) can be also gained by living a Layman life
Being a lay person or monkhood is a personal choice. People become monks due to various reasons. Please see the following two examples of Sutta.
So King Koravya sat down on the seat prepared. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ratthapala, "There are cases where, having suffered these four kinds of loss, men shave off their hair & beard, put on the ochre robe, and go forth from the home life into homelessness. Which four? Loss through aging, loss through illness, loss of wealth, & loss of relatives... But Master Ratthapala has suffered none of these. What did he know or see or hear that Master Ratthapala went forth from the home life into homelessness?"

Then the monks who were companions of Ven. Nanda went around addressing him as they would a hired hand & a person who had been bought: "Venerable Nanda, they say, has been hired. Venerable Nanda, they say, has been bought.[1] He's leading the holy life for the sake of nymphs. The Blessed One is his guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs."
But for whatever reasons they become a monk, if they practice rightly and with good intention, the monkhood is certainly an ideal situation for practicing Dhamma. Whatever I have read on suttas and understood till now, there is not a single instance where the Buddha praised the householder path over to the monk-hood path, while the opposite is true. The householder path as compared to the monk-hood path is like "better than nothing"
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by Virgo »

happylotus1 wrote:I have a strong inclination of ordination to live a life without any burden and responsibilities of mundane life :computerproblem: . This interest of my renunciation life started around 10 years back when I was introduced to the teachings of the Buddha.
Is it usually because of wisdom or aversion?
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happylotus1
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by happylotus1 »

I guess it is both. As venerable bhikkhu Pesala had pointed out:
I think there can always be mixed motivations when we do anything wholesome.
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by Virgo »

happylotus1 wrote:I guess it is both. As venerable bhikkhu Pesala had pointed out:
I think there can always be mixed motivations when we do anything wholesome.
At different moments, sure. But which one is the path and which one is not the path?

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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by indian_buddhist »

Ok I dont know if I should be coming in....

The Dhamma is not a Dogma. You cannot pick and choose verses which suit your liking. The Dhamma has to be first understood in Totality and after understanding it in full it has to undergo a rigorous test of our own Discernment and analysis. Kalama Sutta comes to mind immediately.

Like I said ......what you consider being Wholesome (Becoming a Monk leaving behind your wife) just to follow the Path is not wholesome according to my discernment.

You can do what you wish ......Its just my view.
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

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Excerpts from Latukikopama Sutta: The Quail Simile seems to be relevant here
" Suppose there were a poor person, penniless & indigent, with a single little shack — dilapidated, open to the crows, not the best sort; and a single bed — dilapidated, not the best sort; and a single pot of rice & gourd seeds — not the best sort; and a single wife — not the best sort. He would go to a park and see a monk — his hands & feet washed after a delightful meal, sitting in the cool shade, committed to the heightened mind. The thought would occur to him: 'How happy the contemplative state! How free of disease the contemplative state! O that I — shaving off my hair & beard and donning the ochre robe — might go forth from the household life into homelessness!' But being unable to abandon his single little shack — dilapidated, open to the crows, not the best sort; his single bed — dilapidated, not the best sort; his single pot of rice & gourd seeds — not the best sort; and his single wife — not the best sort — he wouldn't be able to shave off his hair & beard, to don the ochre robe, or to go forth from the household life into homelessness. And suppose someone were to say, 'That single little shack... that single bed... that single pot... and that single wife — not the best sort — by which that man was snared, which he was unable to abandon, and because of which he couldn't shave off his hair & beard, don the ochre robe, and go forth from the household life into homelessness: for him they were a weak snare, a feeble snare, a rotting snare, an insubstantial snare.' Would the person speaking that way be speaking rightly?"
"Now suppose, Udayin, that there were a householder or householder's son — rich, prosperous, & wealthy — with vast amounts of gold ingots, vast amounts of grain, a vast number of fields, a vast amount of land, a vast number of wives, and a vast number of male & female slaves. He would go to a park and see a monk — his hands & feet washed after a delightful meal, sitting in the cool shade, committed to the heightened mind. The thought would occur to him: 'How happy the contemplative state! How free of disease the contemplative state! O that I — shaving off my hair & beard and donning the ochre robe — might go forth from the household life into homelessness!' And being able to abandon his vast amounts of gold ingots, his vast amounts of grain, his vast number of fields, his vast amount of land, his vast number of wives, and his vast number of male & female slaves, he would be able to shave off his hair & beard, to don the ochre robe, and to go forth from the household life into homelessness. Now suppose someone were to say, 'Those vast amounts of gold ingots... and a vast number of male & female slaves by which that householder or householder's son was snared but which he was able to abandon so that he could shave off his hair & beard, don the ochre robe, and go forth from the household life into homelessness: for him they were a strong snare, a thick snare, a heavy snare, an unrotting snare, and a thick yoke.' Would the person speaking that way be speaking rightly?"
A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathāgata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

Post by indian_buddhist »

The statements that you make speaks of aversion towards mundane life. If you want to become a Monk simply because you have aversion to mundane life......you are going in the wrong direction.
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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

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Re: Can intention of renunciation ever be unwholesome?

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indian_buddhist wrote:The statements that you make speaks of aversion towards mundane life. If you want to become a Monk simply because you have aversion to mundane life......you are going in the wrong direction.
Who are we to judge which is the right or the wrong direction? We have to see for ourselves. I wouldn't go in the way and advise someone developed the aspiration to go forth to not do it, to raise doubts or to strenghten doubts that have already arisen... out of my own way, out of my own view on things, possibly out of ones own aversion towards the holy life or ones own doubt if certain monks have chosen to go forth for "wrong reasons". It's his khamma and I wish him well. If he becomes a monk and then practices accordingly, this is very good. If he will remain living the householders life, practicing dhamma, being a loving and caring husband and son, this is very good too.
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What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

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