The Science Delusion and New Mindfulness

[daverupa]

Thich Nhat Hanh, the 87-year-old Zen master considered by many to be the father of mindfulness in the west, says as long as business leaders practice "true" mindfulness, it does not matter if the original intention is triggered by wanting to be more effective at work or to make bigger profits. That is because the practice will fundamentally change their perspective on life...

This is an important qualifier, and I think something of the message gets lost when the emphasis is given to just the line about intention being of lesser importance, even at first. I dare say, there are micchabhavanas in the world.

As he continues,

"If you consider mindfulness as a means of having a lot of money, then you have not touched its true purpose," he says. "It may look like the practise of mindfulness but inside there's no peace, no joy, no happiness produced. It's just an imitation. If you don't feel the energy of brotherhood, of sisterhood, radiating from your work, that is not mindfulness."

Indeed, sammasati touches all aspects of experience:

When they create electronic devices, they can reflect on whether that new product will take people away from themselves, their family and nature," he says. "Instead they can create the kind of devices and software that can help them to go back to themselves, to take care of their feelings. By doing that, they will feel good because they're doing something good for society...

"If they begin to practise mindfulness, they'll experience joy, happiness, transformation, and they can fix for themselves another kind of aspiration. Fame and power and money cannot really bring true happiness compared to when you have a way of life that can take care of your body and your feelings."

---

So his comments revolve around changing aspirations, and without an understanding of the Goal, the mindfulness work is anemic (plus, is this breath-focus mindfulness? They apparently did some seated and walking meditation, but did anyone get instruction in satipatthana? And if so, was it more than just a few minutes? I fear the seeds were scattered on a dusty plain, more than sown...).

[beeblebrox]

What we need is more business leaders to use mindfulness to achieve happiness, eliminate guilt, and find even more devious ways to rip us off as consumers.

Hi Lyndon,

According to the Abhidhamma it is impossible for the mindfulness to be unwholesome.

If greed or ill-will arises then the mindfulness is lost, along with wholesome qualities that are associated with it.

[cooran]

This previous thread may have some relevance:

Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15935

With metta,
Chris

[lyndon taylor]

What we need is more business leaders to use mindfulness to achieve happiness, eliminate guilt, and find even more devious ways to rip us off as consumers.

Hi Lyndon,

According to the Abhidhamma it is impossible for the mindfulness to be unwholesome.

If greed or ill-will arises then the mindfulness is lost, along with wholesome qualities that are associated with it.

Does anyone believe these businessmen are actually being taught real mindfulness as opposed to mind control???

[ancientbuddhism]

indeed sammasati touches all aspects of experience

And Satipaṭṭhāna is the framework through which all aspects of experience are assimilated through contemplative knowledge, and ultimately, liberating wisdom.

Thích Nhất Hạnh has been very good at giving a humanitarian emphasis to a so-called ‘mindfulness’ practice, but loving-kindness and other social graces arise best as a product of sammasamādhi/sammasati. Otherwise, if these are the main focus of practice the result will be much the same as clinical or mainstream mindfulness, and even the positive development of loving-kindness etc. will eventually fade and give-way to lesser saṃsāra.

[Lazy_eye]

The Thich Nhat Hanh connection is important, I think, so thanks to seeker242 for bringing it up. Salient point here is that TNH is part of the broader "Humanistic Buddhism" reform movement, which includes such tenets as:

-- From secluded Buddhism to societal Buddhism
-- From Buddhism that avoids the world to Buddhism that benefits the world
-- From a penitent Buddhism to an enterprising Buddhism
-- From a Buddhism of temples to a Buddhism of meeting halls

...and so on (these bullet points are from Ven Hsing Yun's "Humanistic Buddhism: a Blueprint for Life")

The notion of "expedient means" also may be relevant here. Now, it would probably be going too far to say that the emerging secular mindfulness movements are necessarily Mahayana in nature, because probably they also draw from the secularized, Westernized side of Theravada. Nevertheless, it may be that some of the objections being voiced here to "mindfulnessism" (pardon the neologism) would also apply to some currents in East Asian Mahayana.

[seeker242]

I fear the seeds were scattered on a dusty plain, more than sown...).

Perhaps. Although, seeds scattered on a dusty plain is better than no seeds scattered at all, I think. Especially when the seeds themselves are infinite in number. Of course sowing them in fertile soil is better, but if all you have is a dusty plain to work with to begin with, why not just scatter them everywhere!?

[seeker242]

What we need is more business leaders to use mindfulness to achieve happiness, eliminate guilt, and find even more devious ways to rip us off as consumers.

Hi Lyndon,

According to the Abhidhamma it is impossible for the mindfulness to be unwholesome.

If greed or ill-will arises then the mindfulness is lost, along with wholesome qualities that are associated with it.

Does anyone believe these businessmen are actually being taught real mindfulness as opposed to mind control???

If Thich Nhat Hanh is the one teaching them, then yes they are being taught real mindfulness I would say personally.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

If Thich Nhat Hanh is the one teaching them, then yes they are being taught real mindfulness I would say personally.

I doubt very much he is.
In fact, I doubt very much they even have the presence of mind - to be Mindful.
The situation simply does not occur to them.

[lyndon taylor]

From my understanding, on the graded path of buddhism, mindfulness is a more advanced practice, you can't just skip all the beginning steps of buddhism and go straight to mindfulness, not real mindfulness at least!!

[beeblebrox]

If Thich Nhat Hanh is the one teaching them, then yes they are being taught real mindfulness I would say personally.

I doubt very much he is.
In fact, I doubt very much they even have the presence of mind - to be Mindful.
The situation simply does not occur to them.

Hi NoBSBuddhist,

I don't understand this response... did you mean to say that you doubt Thich Nhat Hanh teaches mindfulness, or just that you doubt he teaches a specific group of practitioners?

Also, who is "they"? Did you mean non-practitioners, or did you also mean to include those specific practitioners?

[seeker242]

If Thich Nhat Hanh is the one teaching them, then yes they are being taught real mindfulness I would say personally.

I doubt very much he is.
In fact, I doubt very much they even have the presence of mind - to be Mindful.
The situation simply does not occur to them.

I don't know about that. Just because one does not realize what is being taught, does not necessarily mean it's not being taught. I don't think a teaching is dependent on whether or not someone understands it or even has the capacity to understand it. A teaching is still a teaching even if it falls on deaf ears. IMO. If even only one person out of the millions, one day comes to even a partial understanding, then it's totally worth it!

[ancientbuddhism]

To help guide and inform the discussion set out in the OP, it may be helpful to discuss what differences there are between classical Early Buddhist meditation, including Vipassanā, and later modalities of MBCT/MBSR and mainstream ‘mindfulness’ systems that have derived influence from the former. Some questions have been raised in the thread about whether these later ‘mindfulness’ strategies are comparative to ānāpānasati/satipaṭṭhāna as method and Dhamma as goal. Perhaps the talking-points below will be useful:

◦What does the English term ‘mindfulness’ (Pāḷi sati) mean within the context of Early Buddhist contemplative endeavor, and within the contexts of secular modalities?

• – Ānāpānasati and Satipaṭṭhāna would be a good basis for discussing sati within EB praxis. Much of this was covered in Pali Term: Sati
  
  –Kabat-Zinn teaches a 'mindfulness' method that seems to meet with how Vipassanā has been taught. And a glance at ‘mindfulness’ as it is taught in MBSR looks like the khaṇika samādhi of Burmese Vipassanā e.g. staying present in the moment in an alert and nonjudgmental way (Kabat-Zinn, 1994).

◦What distinguishes secular mindfulness from Dhamma?

• – Perhaps revisiting the question raised here & here on the connection between practice and ethics would help lead this part of the discussion.

[Cittasanto]

What does the English term ‘mindfulness’ (Pāḷi sati) mean within the context of Early Buddhist contemplative endeavor, and within the contexts of secular modalities?

Here is a direct description of mindfulness from the canon

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness.

What distinguishes secular mindfulness from Dhamma?]

I agree there is/can be some meeting and correlation between secular and dhamma mindfulness practices but looking at the "raisin meditation" the split becomes more obvious. Wheras Dhammic mindfulness will shy away from sensual pleasure, secular mindfulness will (at times) focus on it. also the precepts, and arguably the sila section of the Noble Eightfold Path, are for mindfulness (SN47.21) and I see no training in virtue within secular mindfulness practices.

[Spiny Norman]

... "raisin meditation"

I completely failed the raisin exercise when I did on an MBSR day - I just ate the raisin straight away, assuming it was a very small snack.