the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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tharpa
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby tharpa » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:42 am

kirk5a wrote:"When this nature disintegrates after having been destroyed by discernment, a nature marvelous far above and beyond any conventional reality will appear in full measure. At the same moment, we will see the harm of what is harmful and the benefits of what is beneficial. The awareness of release will appear as dhammo padipo -- the brightness of the Dhamma -- in full radiance, like the sun that, when unobscured by clouds, lets the world receive the full radiance of its light. The result is that the awareness of release appears plainly to the heart of the meditator the moment unawareness has disbanded."
- Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I read one of Ven. Maha Boowa's books while I was in an aranya in Sri Lanka in the '90's. It seemed pretty clear that he believed in an atta, and thus was a heretic by Buddhist standards. He said that one should let all of the false views of self come to their demise, and what was left was the true self. This did not seem to be a method of discovering not-self, it seemed like discovering the true self was the end goal for him.

I therefore would respectfully not regard that monk as an authority on anything other than his own views.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby SarathW » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:34 am

Nibbana is the freedom from ignorance.
If you are wise you would not think about Nibbana! (the raft)
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby tharpa » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:58 am

SarathW wrote:Nibbana is the freedom from ignorance.
If you are wise you would not think about Nibbana! (the raft)
:shrug:


Sorry, I don't get your point. Are you saying that NIbbana is the raft?
Dhamma and sila is the raft. Nibbana is the destination. Prior to attaining Nibbana, the wise do think about dhamma, sila and nibbana. This is what impels them to practice, and practice correctly.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby SarathW » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:34 am

The word Nibbana is a fabrication.
So it is a raft too!
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby tharpa » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:08 am

SarathW wrote:The word Nibbana is a fabrication.
So it is a raft too!
:)

So when you reach Nibbana, you can abandon the word. Until then, the wise ponder it.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby SarathW » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:15 am

Of course.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby seeker242 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:21 pm

One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue. :smile:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

:anjali:

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby tharpa » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:27 pm

seeker242 wrote:One of my favorite short suttas regarding the not-extinct vs extinct issue. :smile:
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. SN 12.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So it seems to me that if you still see some kind of existence or extinction, then you still don't have a right view since right view involves none of the above? Except of course "ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications...From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death", etc. etc.?

:anjali:


Normally I wouldn't respond just to say "ditto", but you do have question marks, so yes, that seems to be what he is saying. It's interesting though, because here he seems to be calling the view "Everything doesn't exist" as an extreme, but isn't one of the higher jhanas something like "nothing exists"?

Edit: Sort of. ""Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. " - From the Anupada Sutta

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Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:52 am

Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:07 am

Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:10 am

indian_buddhist wrote:Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.


1. Once you've attained nibbana, you no longer have a fixed conception of you and no longer place any importance on whether you continue or cease, or change or whatever. But, to the point, Nibbana is not a place and no one can 'go there'. You simply cease to cling to your own existence and no longer think of yourself as eternal and unchanging, and what it is more, you have no desire for an eternal, unchanging self.

2. Nibbana has no feeling. It is not something that exists, but is lack greed, hate and delusion and all the mental states, and mental turmoil, that arise because of them. But, when an arahant reflects on the cessation of greed, hate, delusion, and all the mental turmoil, they feel pleasure. But they don't try to keep that pleasure for ever, and don't morn when it fades away.

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 am

cooran wrote:Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris


Hello Chris,

I completely know it is not Annihilation. Obviously it is not annihilation. How can it be Annihilation?.....Annihilation is end of everything - both Good qualities and Bad qualities.

But Nibbana is destruction of only the Bad qualities - Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Once that is achieved.....I am interested to know what happens after that?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:30 am

Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:35 am

Where does a flame go when it is extinguished?

Nibbāna is not a place, so no one "goes to nibbāna," and there are no Buddhas or Arahants "in nibbāna."

The self-view is an illusion. When that illusion has been understood, the two extreme wrong views of annihilationism and eternalism will also be destroyed.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:35 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
It is wrongly put. Nibbana, by definition, is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no "in nibbana" except in a figurative sense.

    S.N. IV 251 and IV 321: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

      >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
      -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:45 am

Again and Again the Buddha talks about Noble ones seek the Deathless - One which is not subject to Rebirth.

So Nibbana has to be Permanent right?.

I am not talking of Eternalism - Eternalism means those who speak of a permanent Soul who may goto heaven on doing good deeds but will fall back to Animal Realm or Hell later on.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:56 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.


THere is no permanent state of being. Greed, Hate and Delusion confound us into thinking that there is, or that there could be. But there isn't, and there can't be. Nibbana is when we realize that there is nothing within us or outside us that exists eternally - having realized this truth deeply and truly, we stop longing for such a thing, and stop getting upset when the good fades away, or when the bad takes its place. The human being, while alive, no longer suffers pains and arrows when his or her plans go wrong, or things are lost. The human being, on death, does not demand their own existence continue, nor do they demand that it end - they just know that there never was anything permanent here, and there never will be.

So, to repeat, Nibbana is the lack of Greed, HAte and Delusion. Once those things are gone from a human being, they do not return. For that human being, there is a lack of Greed, Hate and Delusion for the remainder of life. And when their life ends, there still isn't any Greed, Hate and Delusion for them. That's 'Eternal Nibbana', a term that confuses so many.

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:37 am

Ok so from your guys understanding an Ordinary Folk who has not achieved Arhant has no way of figuring out what Nibbana is?.

Meaning it is the UNDETERMINED.......Meaning one does not know if it is permanent or non-permanent.

Atleast can anyone tell me Nibbana means Happiness , Bliss or even that information is UNKNOWN.

If it is unknown then is it going after the Unknown is 8 Fold noble path followed?.
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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby pegembara » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:55 am

A link to the great master Ajahn Chah's description of nibbana :

This is the nature of enlightenment; it’s the extinguishing of fire, the cooling of that which was hot. This is peace. This is the end of samsāra, the cycle of birth and death. When you arrive at enlightenment, this is how it is. It’s an ending of the ever-turning and ever-changing, an ending of greed, aversion and delusion in our minds. We talk about it in terms of happiness because this is how worldly people understand the ideal to be, but in reality it has gone beyond. It is beyond both happiness and suffering. It’s perfect peace.

http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/blog/?p=11041
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:33 am

My article on What is Nibbāna? may help you to understand.
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