the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Sarva » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:15 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sarva wrote:Do you know if it is considered that inactive consciousness continues through sleep? For example, in dream sleep there is a certain consciousness of dream, later on awaking we are consicous that we slept deeply and/or that we drempt. I am curious if there is such a consciousness in scripture or spoken of elsewhere that you may know?

I can't recall offhand what the Theravāda commentaries have to say on this (and I can't think of where to look in the commentaries for a discussion of it). Of the top of my head I would guess that the underlying continuum (bhavanga-sota & bhavanga-citta) continues during deep, dreamless sleep, and that mental consciousness (manoviññāṇa) occurs when dreaming. However, there may be a more precise description of the mental processes during the dream state.

Thanks again Ñāṇa! Having followed up on the links you kindly provided it appears to me that the topic is more profound than thought; there are more than 2 terms which can be translated into the English word "Consciousness" and hence I am not 100% clear on how these were used. I feel I have two options: 1) perhaps someone can point me towards some indepth research so I can study further or 2) let the topic rest :)

Metta.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:22 pm

Sarva wrote:1) perhaps someone can point me towards some indepth research so I can study further or

The Mind in Early Buddhism by Bhikkhu Thich Minh Thanh.

Sarva wrote:2) let the topic rest

Not a bad idea either. It's prudent to just study a bit at a time, and try to internalize the meaning in practice.

User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Lazy_eye » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:17 am

Dugu wrote:
vinasp wrote:Hi Dugu,

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?



I suppose my question refers more to after-death state.


Perhaps another way of asking the question would be: is parinibbana identical to death as understood by a physicalist? Is it equivalent to annihilation?

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:00 pm

Lazy_eye wrote:Perhaps another way of asking the question would be: is parinibbana identical to death as understood by a physicalist? Is it equivalent to annihilation?


It's possible to understand life and death in purely physical terms such that the apparent lack of existence prior to one's birth is taken as equivalent to that after death, with life an interlude of happenstance,* but this view strikes me as being just as pernicious as any other view to which one might cling, especially as it crosses an epistemological divide. In this case I would see such a physicalist, not as adhering to annihilationism, but rather as unwittingly conceiving of/in/from "nibbana" per MN 1.




---
*here, "happenstance" is very broad - for example, there is the possibility of taking various neuroscientific facts as proof of the lack of an enduring self, such that one understands no self to be annihilated at death. Additionally, this need not entail moral nihilism as there are various ways ethics can have a foundation here.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:52 am

Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8433
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:07 am

Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Reductor
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:10 am

indian_buddhist wrote:Nibbana - from my understanding is the deathless stage.

It signifies the following:-

1. Complete destruction of Greed, Hatred and Delusion.
2. No more rebirths in any realm of existence.
3. It is a deathless stage.

My questions are :-
On attaining Nibbana:-
1. Where does one go?.
2. What are the qualities of attaining Nibbana. Is it pure happiness and bliss?.
3. Does one stay in Nibbana state permanently for infinite eons?.


1. Once you've attained nibbana, you no longer have a fixed conception of you and no longer place any importance on whether you continue or cease, or change or whatever. But, to the point, Nibbana is not a place and no one can 'go there'. You simply cease to cling to your own existence and no longer think of yourself as eternal and unchanging, and what it is more, you have no desire for an eternal, unchanging self.

2. Nibbana has no feeling. It is not something that exists, but is lack greed, hate and delusion and all the mental states, and mental turmoil, that arise because of them. But, when an arahant reflects on the cessation of greed, hate, delusion, and all the mental turmoil, they feel pleasure. But they don't try to keep that pleasure for ever, and don't morn when it fades away.

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.
Michael
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 am

cooran wrote:Hello Indian_Buddhist, all,

This LONG thread may be of interest:

Is the result of Parinibbana annihilation?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1039

With metta,
Chris


Hello Chris,

I completely know it is not Annihilation. Obviously it is not annihilation. How can it be Annihilation?.....Annihilation is end of everything - both Good qualities and Bad qualities.

But Nibbana is destruction of only the Bad qualities - Greed, Hatred and Delusion. Once that is achieved.....I am interested to know what happens after that?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:30 am

Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2924
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:35 am

Where does a flame go when it is extinguished?

Nibbāna is not a place, so no one "goes to nibbāna," and there are no Buddhas or Arahants "in nibbāna."

The self-view is an illusion. When that illusion has been understood, the two extreme wrong views of annihilationism and eternalism will also be destroyed.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22444
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:35 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.
It is wrongly put. Nibbana, by definition, is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion. There is no "in nibbana" except in a figurative sense.

    S.N. IV 251 and IV 321: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana."
.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:45 am

Again and Again the Buddha talks about Noble ones seek the Deathless - One which is not subject to Rebirth.

So Nibbana has to be Permanent right?.

I am not talking of Eternalism - Eternalism means those who speak of a permanent Soul who may goto heaven on doing good deeds but will fall back to Animal Realm or Hell later on.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

User avatar
Reductor
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:56 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
Reductor wrote:

3. No one stays in nibbana for ever. But once greed, hate and delusion have been existinguished in a human being, they don't return. So, this non-returning of greed, hate and delusion could be seen as eternal nibbana.


Are you sure about this?. I thought Nibbana was a Deathless state - a Permanent state of being. Correct me if i am wrong.


THere is no permanent state of being. Greed, Hate and Delusion confound us into thinking that there is, or that there could be. But there isn't, and there can't be. Nibbana is when we realize that there is nothing within us or outside us that exists eternally - having realized this truth deeply and truly, we stop longing for such a thing, and stop getting upset when the good fades away, or when the bad takes its place. The human being, while alive, no longer suffers pains and arrows when his or her plans go wrong, or things are lost. The human being, on death, does not demand their own existence continue, nor do they demand that it end - they just know that there never was anything permanent here, and there never will be.

So, to repeat, Nibbana is the lack of Greed, HAte and Delusion. Once those things are gone from a human being, they do not return. For that human being, there is a lack of Greed, Hate and Delusion for the remainder of life. And when their life ends, there still isn't any Greed, Hate and Delusion for them. That's 'Eternal Nibbana', a term that confuses so many.
Michael
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:37 am

Ok so from your guys understanding an Ordinary Folk who has not achieved Arhant has no way of figuring out what Nibbana is?.

Meaning it is the UNDETERMINED.......Meaning one does not know if it is permanent or non-permanent.

Atleast can anyone tell me Nibbana means Happiness , Bliss or even that information is UNKNOWN.

If it is unknown then is it going after the Unknown is 8 Fold noble path followed?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

pegembara
Posts: 955
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby pegembara » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:55 am

A link to the great master Ajahn Chah's description of nibbana :

This is the nature of enlightenment; it’s the extinguishing of fire, the cooling of that which was hot. This is peace. This is the end of samsāra, the cycle of birth and death. When you arrive at enlightenment, this is how it is. It’s an ending of the ever-turning and ever-changing, an ending of greed, aversion and delusion in our minds. We talk about it in terms of happiness because this is how worldly people understand the ideal to be, but in reality it has gone beyond. It is beyond both happiness and suffering. It’s perfect peace.

http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/blog/?p=11041
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2924
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:33 am

My article on What is Nibbāna? may help you to understand.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

indian_buddhist
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 am
Location: Bangalore, India

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby indian_buddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:51 am

OK I had to say this:-

What is the motivation for the 8 fold-noble path if the result as you say is - UNKNOWN?. In fact what is the USE of following the path when the end result is UNKNOWN?.

OK it is easy for a Monk to run away from the world - shut yourself off to some isolated forest where they can keep a large distance between the greedy , hating and deluded folks of the mundane world as the Monks say. Someone will provide for their food anyway. So they can sit and do meditation all day...

There in the forest isolated from the deluded world, then can leisurely follow the 8-fold noble path and noone will disturb them.

What about a Layman?........What is the motivation for him to follow the path?. He has to tackle Greedy, hating and deluded people EVERYDAY , EVERY MOMENT in day to day life and still strive hard to keep the 5 precepts.........If in the end of it all , What he can achieve is UNKNOWN?......Why does he have to undergo the pains to follow the 8 Fold path?.

Like I said it is easy for a Monk to run away from the world to some isolated place and follow his path where noone will bother to disturb him.

Further, what about Poor people? . It is easy for Western people to follow Buddhism because they live in comforts of life. Here in India, there are poor people who do daily Physical labour for 12-14 hours per day lifting weights of 100 kgs behind their back for an earning of 100 Rs(2 Dollar) per day.

What is the Motivation for him to follow Buddhism if all he can gain from it is UNKNOWN?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2924
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:38 am

Whether one is a monk or a householder, the motivation for developing the path is the same — to get free from suffering.

  1. The first Noble Truth of Suffering has to be fully understood. As long as we are not yet Arahants, then we have not yet fully understood it.
  2. The second Noble Truth of the Cause of Suffering, which is craving, has to be abandoned. As long as we are not free from craving and attachment, we will continue to suffer.
  3. The third Noble truth of the Cessation of Suffering, which is nibbāna, has to be realised. As long as we have not attained the first path of Stream-winning, nibbāna is still unknown to us. However, suffering is known to us, at least to some extent. If we abandon craving, at least to some extent, then we can enjoy the benefit by suffering less than we did before, when we had more craving and less undestanding.
  4. The fourth Noble truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of suffering has to be developed. That is, we have to undertake and observe morality, develop concentration, and gain wisdom. As we develop the path, suffering will gradually be reduced, until the final goal is reached, when it will cease entirely forever.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

User avatar
TheNoBSBuddhist
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:06 pm
Location: Loch Lomond, via the High AND Low road....

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:59 am

:goodpost:

The Buddha himself told us, that he came to merely teach Suffering, and release from Suffering.

Simple.

('Simple', :quote: yes.... 'Easy'....? Not so much! :meditate: )

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

User avatar
SamKR
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: Where does one go on attaining Nibbana

Postby SamKR » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:03 pm

indian_buddhist wrote:Atleast can anyone tell me Nibbana means Happiness , Bliss or even that information is UNKNOWN.


"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... bbana.html


Return to “Fringe Theravāda Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Goob and 22 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine